Rwanda: Ikiganiro Imvo n’Imvano cyo kuwa 30/8/2014. Ngo Perezida Kayibanda yari intungane

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Na: Tom Ndahiro

Komeza usome ikiganiro cya kabiri cya BBC Gahuzamiryango ku iyicwa ry’abanyapolitiki ba repubulika ya mbere. Cyandukuwe uko twacyumvise uretse ibyagiye bisobanurwa ngo byumvikane neza.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Mwaramukanye amahoro bakunzi b’ikiganiro Imvo n’Imvano. Imvo n’Imvano y’uyu munsi, tariki 30/08/2014 yatumikiye abayisabye ijambo ku kiganiro cyo mu cyumweru gishize ku bwicanyi bw’abanyapolitiki bari ku buyobozi bwiswe Repebulika ya mbere. Abo banyapolitiki bishwe Jenerali Majoro Habyarimana Juvenal amaze guhirika ubutegetsi bwa leta yari iyobowe na Gregoire Kayibanda.

Nyuma y’imyaka 40 ubwo bwicanyi bubaye, abakomoka kuri abo banyapolitiki bishyize hamwe mu muhango wo kubibuka no kubasezeraho kuko bavuga ko batigeze bamenya irengero ryabo.

Icyo kiganiro cyarimo Alphonse Munyandamutsa, Canisius Karake na Dr. Yosefu Nkusi. Hari abatwandikiye badusaba ijambo bamaze kumva icyo kiganiro. Uyu munsi twatumikiye bamwe kuko abadusabye ijambo bari benshi. Turateganya ko abandi tuzabatumikira mu cyumweru gitaha. Mbere yo gutanga ijambo ariko reka mbanze nkosore ikosa twakoze ubushize: ururimi rwaranyereye mvuga ko Kayibanda yapfuye muri 1967, sibyo. Kayibanda yapfuye muri 1976. Muri kumwe na Ally Yusuf Mugenzi.

Reka ntangirire ku butumwa bwavuye i Los Angeles muri Leta Zunze ubumwe z’Amerika. Uwadusabye ijambo yadusabye ko tuzigama izina rye ariko yifuza ko twamuhuza n’umwe mu bari muri icyo kiganiro cy’ubushize, avuga ko hari icyo yifuza gusobanuza. Canisius Karake yemeye kuvugana nawe.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Karake,

Canisius Karake: Ndakumva.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Hari mu byo mwavuze, hari ibyo twumvikanaho, hari aho navugaho cyane ku berebana n’urupfu rwa bariya bantu, urupfu rwa Kayibanda na bariya bantu bitaga Impirimbanyi z’i Gitarama: ntabwo bagombaga kwicwa, bishwe nabi birababaje! Nta n’ubwo bagombaga kwicwa ariko icyerekeranye no kuvuga ukunanirwa kwa Kayibanda, ukunanirwa kwa Perezida Kayibanda: kunanirwa muvuga ni ukunanirwa muri politiki, ni ukunanirwa kw’ingufu? Ndashaka ko musobanurira hariya hantu mbere y’uko mbabaza ikibazo!

Canisius Karake: Icyo kibazo cyawe rero ndumva utakibaza umwe muri twe mubagiranye kiriya kiganiro cyo kuri 23 kuko uko kunanirwa tutakwemera ahubwo wari ukwiye guzashaka abamureze n’abamushinje kunanirwa akaba ari bo ubaza icyo kibazo. Twebwe ntabwo twamera ko yari ananiwe, ngira ngo wakurikiye ikiganiro cyacu.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Nta makosa mubona yakozwe na Perezida Kayibanda yashobora gutuma akurwa ku butegetsi?

Canisius Karake: Kiriya kiganiro ntabwo cyari kigamije kurondora amakosa Perezida Kayibanda cyangwa abamuhiritse baje gukora nabo. Niba warakurikiye kiriya kiganiro cyari kigamije kugira ngo bariya bantu babuze ababo muri kiriya gihe cyo guhirika ubutegetsi bwa Perezida Kayibanda, bakicwa hamwe nawe nyuma, urw’agashinyaguro babone umwanya wo kwibuka ababo no kubaha icyubahiro cyabo. Ntabwo rero uko wagikurikiye ari imihango yabaye kuri 16 z’ukwa Munani mu kiliziya hariya i Buruseli, ari n’ikiganiro cyo kuri 23/08, nta gahunda twari dufite yo kurondora amakosa yakozwe.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Aho turahumvikana neza gusa impamvu yatumwe mbahamagara ni uko hari aho mwavuze uko Abatutsi batotejwe, uko Abatutsi bishwe, biriya byose nabonye musa naho mwarabishyize gusa kuri Perezida Habyarimana: kuri njye ntabwo ari ko nabibonye kuko Abatutsi barapfuye kuva muri za 59 kugeza za ‘60, za ’61. Sinzi niba n’abo bose bicwaga muri icyo gihe twavuga ko ari Habyarimana wabicaga?

Canisius Karake: Ariko se ibyo bintu wumvise muri twe uko twari batatu, hari uwo wumvise ashinja Habyarimana kuba yarishe Abatutsi ahubwo ko icyo bariya bana natwe twamushinjaga ari ukuba yarishe bariya bantu urw’agashyinyaguro.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Aho turi kumwe, ibyo tubyumvikanaho niba noneho izo mpfu zo kwica Abatutsi mu mashuri, biriya bintu byose niba mutarabishyize Habyarimana ubwo rero ntabwo twakomeza kuganira kuko aho niho numvaga ko tutari kumvikana ariko ku byerekeranye no kwica ziriya mpirimbanyi z’i Gitarama, kwica Kayibanda, kubica nabi, aho ho turi kumwe, ibyo byo tubibona kimwe.

Canisius Karake: Aho ngaho rero naho ntidushyira ibintu mu bintu byo gukomatanya ibintu byabaye mu Rwanda, ngo tubishyire mu gatebo kamwe. Wowe uratangira muri 1959, twebwe dushinja Habyarimana ko afata ubutegetsi ku ngufu ku itariki ya 05/07/1973 yishe Kayibanda na bamwe mu bafasha be.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Nibyo rwose.

Canisius Karake: Ibyo niba warakurikiye ikiganiro neza, ukakigera ku musozo wacyo, wumvise aho nifuje ko Abanyarwanda twese twahuriza hamwe, tugahurira hamwe, tukaba twakorana inama yo gusuzuma ibyabaye mu mateka yacu, hanyuma tukabivanamo umwanzuro wazaduha kubana mu mahoro no mu bwumvikane. Ibyo bibazo rero wongeramo ukavuga ko byatewe na kiriya kiganiro kuva muri ‘59 na za ‘61 na ‘66, ntaho bihuriye na kiriya kiganiro twakoze.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ni uko mu kiganiro byari birimo, muvuga ko iyo ari imipango Habyarimana yakoraga kugira ngo amunaniza, ibyo by’amashuri, abo bantu bishwe ko ari Habyarimana wabipangaga kugira ngo ananize Kayibanda ahubwo mwarakomeje mugeza no ku iby’i Burundi, ndabyibuka niba ari Alphonse, yarangiza avuga ko yagiye i Burundi n’indege. Ndumva mwarakomeje bigera kure ahubwo ariko niba…

Canisius Karake: Yego ariko urumva ko ari kuva muri 72 na 73 aho nyine nanjye navuze ko Habyarimana yari igitekerezo cyo kuvana Perezida Kayibanda ku butegetsi ariko akaza guhura n’ingorane z’uko icyo gihe uko u Rwanda rwategekwaga, n’uko rwari rumeze, n’abaturage barwo, n’uko bari babanye n’ubutegetsi bwabo byari bifite ingufu zihagijhe ku buryo atari guhita nk’uko Abarundi bavuga- atembagaza iyo leta, ahubwo yashatse uburyo yayinaniza, ibimenyetso byinshi birahari kugira ngo noneho igihe cyo kuyihirika azabe afite uko abyitabaramo ku buryo butamugoye.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Aho rero nyine niho ntari kumvikana: kumunaniza? Kuko Kayibanda urebye nawe asa naho yinanije, nka kiriya kintu cyo guhindura ‘constitution’, agakomeza gutegeka, ndatekereza ko iyo adahindura ‘constitution’ ngo ashake gutegeka ubuzima bwe bwose iriya coup d’etat yashoboraga kutaba. Niyo yari kuba ntabwo yari kuba kuri Kayibanda, yashoboraga kuba ku wundi muperezida wari kuba yamusimbuye.

Canisius Karake: Icyo kibazo wibaza rero ndagira ngo nkikubaze kuko nk’uko nabivuze hari igipande cy’amateka y’u Rwanda cyabaye njyewe ndi mu mahanga, hari utuntu tumwe ntashoboye gukurikirana, wowe rero ubwo numva usa n’ubizi ahubwo nagira ngo ngusabe ubwo buryo Kayibanda yinanije, tukaba tubugereka kuri Habyarimana, ni nk’ubuhe? Byabaye ryari? Byabaye gute?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ubwo buryo ni kiriya kintu cyo guhindura ‘constitution’: yagombaga gutegeka manda ebyiri, akava ku butegetsi noneho bagatora undi. Kuba rero manda ze zararangiye, agashaka kugundira ubutegetsi kiriya ni ikintu cyerekana ko politiki ye yari ayizambije, Abanyarwanda yari abatse uburenganzira bwabo bwo gutora ndetse hageze aho no muri MDR havukamo ibice, hazamo abaparmehutu bataye umurongo, urumva biriya bintu cyane cyane kiriya cyo guhindura ‘constitution’ agashaka gukomeza gutegeka ubuzima bwe bwose.

Canisius Karake: Ese reka nkubaze: ku itariki ya 05/07/1973, Kayibanda yari yaratangiye ubutegetsi bwa manda ya gatatu ye? Ibyo bintu byari byararangiye, byaratunganye? Amategeko abyemeza yari yaragiyeho? Wowe wari uhari wenda sinzi niba wari uhari cyangwa se wabyumvise ute? Icyo kibazo ndagira ngo ukinsubize!

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Uko nabyumvise: Perezida Kayibanda yagombaga gutorerwa manda ebyiri zikarangira, akava ku butegetsi bagatora undi muperezida nk’uko bisazwe bigenda muri demokarasi ariko ntabwo ari byagenze, manda ebyeri, ahindura ‘constitution’, akomeza gutegeka na Habyarimana akora ikosa nk’iryo rya Kayibanda.

Canisius Karake: Oya, ndakubaza iyo ‘constitution’ bari bamaze kuyihindura, abadepite bari baramaze kuyivota [kuyitora], inteko ishinga amategeko yari yamaze kumutorera kujya kuri iyo manda ya gatatu cyangwa se uko nanjye nabyumvise hari igitekerezo cyo kugira ngo bajye kubaza inteko y’ishyaka Parmehutu, komite central yayo na za komite zo mu maperefegitura, bayibaze umukandida bifuza ko yasimbura Perezida wa Repubulika kugira ngo abe ari we utangira iyo manda, Kayibanda amaze kwicara? 

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Icyo nticyari gushoboka kuko Kayibanda yari yaramaze guhagarika amashyaka yose, ashigaje Parmehutu ye gusa.

Canisius Karake: Oya! Ibyo ntaho bihuriye na Parmehutu. Ibyo ni ikibazo cy’amashyaka. Ndagira ngo nkubaze gusa muri iryo shyaka uvuga ryari risigaye rya Parmehutu ryari ryamaze kwemeza ko Kayibanda azakomeza akayobora igihugu nyuma ya manda ya kabiri. Ibyo bintu byabayeho?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Yari yaratangiye manda ya gatatu. Ibyo birazwi. Yari yaratangiye manda ya gatatu.

Canisius Karake: Yariyatangiye manda ya gatatu ate ko ari byo nkubaza? Ese Perezida yararahiye imbere y’inteko ishinga amategeko na cour supreme nk’uko ‘constitution’ ibiteganya, yarahiye ko agiye kuyobora manda ya gatatu, ibyo bintu byarabaye?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ntabwo ari ngombwa ko arahira. Ikibazo kiragaraga: yari yaramaze guhagarika amashyaka yose, yashoboraga guhangana nawe, abantu bashoboraga kwiyamamazanya nabo yari yaramaze kuberimina [kubakuraho]. 

Canisius Karake: Oya, oya! Ndagira ngo twumvikane! Niba ushaka ko twungurana ibitekerezo. Hari ukugendera ku bitekerezo, kugendera ku marangamutima no kugendera ku bintu bifatika, Perezida wa Repubulika, uko ubizi, mu bihugu byose, atangira manda iyo yarahiriye imbere y’inteko ishinga amategeko na cour constitutionnnelle na conseil constitutionnel. Ibyo bintu byarabaye Perezida wa Repubulika Kayibanda atangira iyo manda ya gatatu uvuga?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ibyo niwe wagombaga kubikora kurahira ariko nyine amayeri ye yo kugira ngo akomeze ategeke, nta n’ubwo ibyo yabishatse, yashatse gukomeza ubutegetsi nk’umwami. 

Canisius Karake: Oya ariko ntabwo ari byiza gukora mu kintu cy’icyuka. Niba ushaka ko twungurana ibitekerezo, niba ushaka ko tugira ikiganiro gifitiye abandi banyarwanda akamaro, ntabwo ari ugukorera ku marangamutima, ngo twumvise ko bigiye kugenda bitya dufata icyemezo cyo guhira ubutegetsi. Twumvise ko idafite ikimenyetso gifatika, kigaragara: ese ibyo wumvise ko none haba hari undi wumvise ibindi?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ubwo Karake wowe mubwire ibyo wumvise noneho kuko we arakubwira ibyo yumvise! Reka nitambikemo gato!

Canisius Karake: Mvuge ibyo numvise mu by’ukuri njye ndi kumubaza nabanze abwire ibyo yumvise, mbigaye cyangwa mbyemere.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ni uko iminota irimo kugenda

Canisius Karake: Ntabwo twazanywe no guterana amagambo gusa

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ni ukungurana ibitekerezo, ni ukubwizanya ukuri. Ni Imvo n’Imvano. 

Canisius Karake: Bitaba ibyo ni ko muri demokarasi bigenda niba akomeje gutsimbarara kuri icyo kibazo, ku buryo bwe acyumva twagihagarika tugakomeza ibindi.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ok reka nkubwire ibyo numvise ni uko manda ya kibiri yarangiye, akomeza gutegeka.

Canisius Karake: Manda ye yarangiye, akomeza gutegeka? Ibyo bintu wumvise rero ntabwo ari byo. Ibyo bintu wumvise ntabwo aribyo nk’uko nakubwira bidenga muri demokarasi kugira ngo Perezida wa Repubulika atangire manda. Icyo numvise ni uko Perezida wa Repubulika yari yagennye ko haba inama y’ishyaka, iyo nama ikabazwa ibibazo bibiri: ikibazo cya mbere kikaba icyo kugena umukandida w’ishyaka riri ku butegetsi, ishyaka rifite abadepite benshi mu nteko ishinga amategeko, rikagena umukandida uzasimbura Perezida wa Repubulika nyuma y’uko arangije iyo manda ya kabiri. Ikindi cya kabiri cyagombaga kubazwa muri iyo nama: ni ikibazo cy’umutekano muke wari mu gihugu, bagasuzuma aho uturuka, byashoboka bagasuzuma bakareba nuko bamenya n’abawutera. Ibyo bibazo uko ari bibiri rero ntabwo byabajijwe kubera ko iyo nama byari kubarizwamo itabaye bitewe nuko abahiritse ubutegetsi babikoze izo nama zitaraba. Nonese hari uko byagenda, hari inama wanyungura kugira ngo twese twembi ubwo dushaka uko byagenze tube twabona abahiritse ubwo butegetsi noneho turebe ko twabinginga bakadusobanurira icyatumye bahirika ubwo butegetsi kandi icyateganyijwe gukorwa n’ubutegetsi kitaragera?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko buretse gato Karake, hari ikintu hano uyu mugabo avuze ushobora kuba uzi wenda wakimubwira: akubwiye ko Perezida Kayibanda yari amaze kujya amuri manda ya gatatu. Nibyo ntabwo ari byo?

Canisius Karake: Njyewe ntabwo mbizi rwose. Niba aribyo ndabifata nk’uko abivuga ariko ndifuza yuko abwira itariki y’ukuri iyo manda yatangiriyeho!

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Oya amatariki yo ntayo mfitye hano.

Canisius Karake: Ariko urakomeza gutsimbarara ko ibyo bintu byabayeho

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ubwo niba bitarabayeho abatwumva, babizi, bazaca urubanza.

Canisius Karake: Niko bikwiye kugenda kuko ntabwo tugiye kuba nka ba bandi ngo bagomba gukizwa na Mbuga. Ntabwo twabona Mbuga ukora urugendo hagati y’Ububiligi n’Amerika kugira ngo adukize.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Hari ikindi gitekerezo avuze hano: amacakubiri yari ari muri MDR-Parmehutu?

Canisius Karake: Amacakubiri yari muri MDR-PARMEHUTU ntabwo ari ayo muri 1972, mujye mugerageza gutandukanya ibintu. Ariya macakubiri bavuga ari nayo numvise avuga ko yaba yaraturutse cyane cyane ku barwanashyaka b’ishyaka rya Parmehutu baturuka mu karere k’amajyaruguru barirukanywe ari benshi nagira ngo namubwire ko ibyo bintu atari byo kubera yuko lisiti y’abantu birukanywe icyo gihe irahari kandi kwirukanwa ntabwo ari imikorere mibi ya demokarasi cyangwa ya politiki mu Rwanda: iteka iyo abantu bataye icyizere, bambuye Perezida wa Repubulika, bakambura leta icyizere, igikorwa ni ugusezerera abo abo bantu, bakabaha uburenganzira bwabo, bakajya mu mirimo yabo. Ibitaturi kure ejobundi wabonye Minisitiri Montebourg wo mu Bufaransa amaze kugaragaza yuko nta cyizere agifitiye Perezida wa Repubulika Hollande na Premier Minisitri Valls bahise bamukuraho, bashyiraho abantu bafite ubushake bwo gukorana na Perezida wa Repubulika na Premier Minisitiri. Icyo gihe rero muri ‘68 niho byabaye, hirukanywe abantu b’abarwanashyaka b’ishyaka rya MDR, muri bo ndakumenyesha yuko harimo n’uwahoze ari Perezida wa Repubulika kandi akaba avuka n’i Gitarama ntabwo rero ari ikintu cy’igikorwa Perezida Kayibanda yakoze…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Uwo ni nde?

 Utashatse kwivuga izina: Mbonyumutwa

 Canisius Karake: Ngira ngo Mugenzi amateka y’u Rwanda nawe urayazi…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko nuko tubwira, abatwumva harimo abato batabizi bwana Karake, ikiganiro si icyanjye.

Canisius Karake: Abato batabizi ariko uwo muhungu wabibajije arabizi.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Mbonyumutwa ntabwo yirukanywe. Mbonyumutwa we yari Perezida w’agateganyo yari yararangije igihe cye, yari ari hari ntabwo urebye yari muri politiki cyane.

Canisius Karake: Oya, muri MDR, ntabwo mvuga muri leta. Bariya bantu ugenda uvuga ngo yuko ngo abarwanashyaka bo mu majyaruguru ngo birukanwe mu ishyaka, ugomba kwemera ko abo bantu atari bo benshi mu mubare w’abantu birukanwe mu ishyaka kandi kubirukana nta handi byaturutse ni uko bari bagaragaze ko batagitiye Perezida wa Repubulika n’ishyaka icyizere, ntitubitindeho kuko ibimenyetso birahari. Niba utabizi uzagerageze gushaka!

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ushobora kuduha urugero rw’abandi buturuka mu kandi karere birukanwe?

Canisius Karake: Yoooo! Lisiti irahari iyo nza kumenya ko icyo kibazo uri bukimbaze mba nayiteguye nkayigusomera, eee?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko ba uretse gato! Lisiti irahari, niba uzi bake, bamubwire, bwana Karake!

Canisius Karake: Reka nguhe umugabo Rwasibo, reka nguhe umugabo Amandin Rugira, nguhe umugabo Sentama, ari Rwasibo ari Rugira ntabwo abantu bo mu karere ko mu majyaruguru babarushije gufata imyanya ikomeye muri kiriya gihugu cyacu.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Naho ikijyanye no gufunga amashyaka ya politiki ugasigaza ishyaka rimwe?

 Canisius Karake: Nta kintu cy’inzika cyari hagati ya bariya bantu na Perezida wa Repubulika cyangwa se n’abandi bagize ishyaka ariko mujye mwibuka n’amateka. Ese uzi ko mu kwezi kwa Gatandatu kwa 60  (1960) ishyaka PARMEHUTU rigiye guhindura izina ryaryo kubera ko ritari rifite ubwisanzure buhagije mu gihugu ryagombye kujya kuyikorera hariya mu Bugarura i Rwaza kwa Bicamumpaka? Ko ariho inama yashyizeho MDR (bongeraga MDR kuri PARMEHUTU ndlr) ariho yabereye? Ibyo bintu se urumva wabikorera ku muntu ukeka ko hari icyo yagukoraho?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ntabwo numva ukuntu uvuga ngo ntabwo ishyaka ryari rifite ubwisanzure kandi andi mashyaka yose yari afunzwe? Icyo cyo waba ugitekerezaho iki?

Canisius Karake: Oyaa! Ibyo ni ibyabaye muri ‘60 ni urugero nguha. Amateka ni ukuyatangirira ku mizi. Ntugatangirire ibintu hagati nka train yamaze kugenda.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko bwana Karake niba koko Kayibanda yarafunze amashyaka wari ukwiye kumubwira, niba agendera ku mashyaka menshi agafunga andi mashyaka, ni ikosa ryabaye mu gihugu!

Canisius Karake: Gufunga amashyaka ntabwo yayabujije gukora. Amashyaka yananiwe gukora kubera ko porogaramu zayo zitari zihuye n’igihe u Rwanda rwarimo. Abaturage baniniye amashyaka. Urumva?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: None se hari abanyapolitiki bari muri guverinoma bataturukaga muri MDR abo bose barirukanwe, bamwe nta nubwo tuzi aho bagiye, urumva iyo mikorere urumva yari myiza?

Canisius Karake: Ndakumenyesha yuko abo bantu wita banyapolitiki bari muri guverinoma, ibyo nabonye wavuze cyangwa se witsitsaho cyane ni ibyabaye muri 63 mu kwezi ku Ukuboza. Icyo gihe nta munyapolitiki muri abo ngabo uvuga utazi aho bagiye wari muri guverinoma ya Perezida Kayibanda. Urumva? Nta mu minisitiri wigeze apfa, yicwa ari muri fonction ministerielle (mu kazi ku ubuminisitiri).

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Abaministiri babiri bari bahagarariye ishyaka UNAR bagiye he?

Canisius Karake: Abaministiri babiri bari bahagarariye ishyaka UNAR, uzamfashe dushakishe aho abo bantu bagiye ariko umwe nzi neza ni uwari muri iryo shyaka yararivuyemo kandi kugeza leta ya Perezida Kayibanda ihirikwa yewe n’ejobundi leta ya Habyarimana ihirikwa uwo mugabo yari mu Rwanda akora muri societe y’abazungu hariya i Kigali. Uzabaze abazi umujyi wa Kigali cyangwa abazi amateka y’icyo gihe bazakubwira!

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Mbivuze wavuga ko ari amarangamutima kuko ntabwo nari mpari ariko bavuga ko bishwe abo bantu: abantu barishwe.

 Canisius Karake: Oya! Ntabwo ari ikibazo cy’amarangamutima kuri cas precis [ikibazo kizwi] n’abantu batwumva ubu ngubu tuvugana uwo mugabo baramuzi ahubwo iyo bakumva batyo bashobora kuba baguseka

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko uwo mugabo ko mumunyura iruhande, niba mumuzi mumuvuge, akubwiye abagabo babiri, wowe uravuga umwe, Karake!

Canisius Karake: Nonese ko avuga abaminisitiri babiri nabwire amazina, abwire uwo yabuze.

 Utashatse kwivuga izina: Nta mazina mfite hano.

Canisius Karake: Umva! Njye ntabwo nkorera mu cyuka rero!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ngufashije muri iyi nyandiko wanyandikiye hano hari ikintu numva utarabaza ariko wanditse hano uvuga gutanga imyanya mu butegetsi bwa leta ku bantu bakomoka mu karere kamwe gusa, kwirukana abaparmehutu bakomoka mu majyaruguru gusa, ibyo wabivuze

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Nanze kwirirwa mbivuga kuko we yavugaga ko we ikiganiro kiri ku byerekeranye n’urupfu rwa bariya bantu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Oya turavuga muri rusange n’ibyabanjirije, ariko reka ngere ku iki ngiki njyewe numva wari ukwiye kumubaza: hari ikintu hano wanditse numva utarabaza Karake ku byerekeye ukuntu Kayibanda yari ameze, utanga urugero rw’ivangura ryari rimurimo, ukuntu yahaye akazi umugabo w’umuhutu, akundana n’umukobwa w’umututsikazi, aramurongora, bituma ava ku kazi. Ni wowe wabyanditse…

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Yego, yego aho ngaho ni bibiri ahubwo nanditse hari aho Kayibanda yashyizeho guverinoma igizwe n’abantu baturukaga iwabo gusa, icyo nacyo wenda uwo mugabo yakidusobanurira! Ikindi cya kabiri, ashobora (kuba) nacyo ataracyumvise, ashobora kuba ataracyumvise, umugabo Nayigiziki, Nayigiziki yavuye kwiga, kwiga hanze, ngira ngo ni mu Butaliyani, sinzi sinibuka aho ari ho, araza ageze mu Rwanda, Kayibanda umuha akazi, hanyuma Nayigizi aza kurongora umukobwa w’umututsikazi. Kayibanda aramubwira ati “hitamo umugore wawe cyangwa uhitemo akazi”. Nayigiziki ati “umugore niwe mpisemo” ubwo akazi arakareka, ajya kwigisha i Butare. Sinzi niba uwo mugabo hari icyo yumvise ku bya Nayigiziki? Icyo niba ataracyumvise ashobora tudusobanurira iriya guverinoma, nabonye byaratambutse no kuri Internet mu minsi ishize, abantu bari bagize guverinoma, wasangaga abantu bava ahantu hamwe gusa…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ni ibintu bibiri ubajije sinzi niba Karake ashobora kuba abizi, yabisubiza!

Canisius Karake: Mugenzi, nagira ngo dusubire inyuma gatoya, uwo mugabo aravuga ko Perezida Kayibanda yari umuntu usa n’ugezwa n’irondakoko, akanagezwa n’irondakarere. Ibyo bintu byombi ndagira ngo mbimuhakanire kandi mbihakane n’ibimenyetso. Ndabaza ku kibazo cy’irondakarere: mu kanya nari maze kukubwira uko Kayibanda n’ishyaka bagiye mu Murera kuhakorera inama yatumye bahindura amatwara n’izina by’ishyaka.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: I Murera, tuvuga, i Murera, ku bahumva ni ahanaga hehe?

Canisius Karake: Ni hariya mu Ruhengeri, ahitwa i Bugarura kwa Bicamumpaka, muri paruwasi ya Rwaza, hafi yo kwa Mpakaniye niho iyo nama yabereye. Dukomeze rero: uriya mugabo uvuga yuko Perezida Kayibanda mu gutanga akazi ka leta yagahaga abantu bakomoka hamwe na we gusa, agakoresha ijambo gusa, ndagira ngo mwibutse ko muri leta Perezida Kayibanda yashinze ku itariki ya 06/02/1963, muri iyo leta,  minisiteri eshatu z’ubusugire bw’igihugu zo mu gifaransa bita ‘les ministeres… , zari mu maboko y’abakomoka mu majyaruguru, ukongeraho n’izindi minisiteri eshatu nazo zitoroshye zari zifitwe n’abakomoka muri ako karere. Iyo leta yari ifite abaminisitiri cumi, abakomoka mu karere ka Majyaruguru bari batandatu ku icumi. Noneho haza leta Perezida Kayibanda yashinze ku itariki ya 06/01/1964, iyo leta yarimo abaminisitiri bane bafite minisiteri z’ubusugire bw’igihugu kandi bakomoka mu Majyaruguru, ukongeraho n’abaminisitiri batatu bafite izindi minisiteri nazo zikomeye. Iyo leta yari ifite abaminisitiri 13, barindwi muri bo, plus de 50% s’il vous plait [abarenga 50%] bari abo mu karere ka Majyaruguru. Urumva! Noneho tuze hariya ejobundi muri 72 (1972), leta yashyizweho kuri 21/01/1972, minisiteri eshatu z’ubusugire bw’igihugu zari mu maboko z’abakomoka mu Majyaruguru y’igihugu, ukongeraho izindi minisiteri ebyiri nazo zari mu maboko y’abakomoka muri ako karere. Tutibagiwe yuko icyo gihe Perezida w’Inteko ishinga amategeko yakomokaga nawe muri ako karere. Ibyo ni ibimenyetso bigaragaraza neza yuko ahubwo urebye Kayibanda yagombaga gukurwaho n’abo mu karere bitaga Nduga kuko ubusugire bw’igihugu bwose bwari bufitwe n’abo mu karere ko muri Nord [amajyaruguru] ariko kubera ko nta rondakarere yagiraga, icyo kibazo ntabwo yigeze ahura nacyo.

Ikindi cya kabiri nakubwira, tuvuye kuri izo za minisiteri mugaragariza ko Kayibanda nta politiki y’akarere yari afite. Ati “umugabo Nayigiziki”, ntabwo muzi, Abanyarwanda bose simbazi ariko ikintu kinteye impungenge ni ukumva uwo muntu yariryukanywe na Perezida Kayibanda kubera yuko yakoze ishyano da! Akarongora umututsikazi kandi yabwirwa kumwirukana akabyanga ndetse ngo yemera kureka akazi ariko ajya kwigisha muri universite y’u Rwanda nk’aho universite y’u Rwanda atari akazi ka leta? Noneho rero tugaruke ku kibazo nyamukuru: ese abantu batwumva icyo kibazo baragifata bate bazi yuko Perezida wa Repubulika ubwe hamwe n’abandi bafasha be bakuru bari bafite abagore b’abAbatutsikazi, babanye neza kandi imiryango yabo n’iy’abagabo babo bisabana ku buryo busesuye? Uwo muntu aho ntiyaba yibeshye urugero? Ndagira ngo mbe mpagarikiye aho ngaho twumve icyo abivugaho.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Yego, ku cyerekeranye n’abari ba minisitiri: icyo cyatambutse kuri internet mu munsi ishize, ndumva lisiti irahari n’uko ntari nayitwaje yo kuri internet y’abari bagize iyo guverinoma ya Kayibanda. Nsubiye kuri internet nazakibona nkacyikoherereza, ntabwo ngitindaho. Naho icyo cya Nayigiziki, akazi ko muri perezidansi n’ako kwigisha ni utuzi twombi twa leta birumvikana ariko dufite titre zitandukanye. Akazi ko kwigisha, icyo gihe bari bakeneye abarimu mu Rwanda ariko akazi ko muri perezidanse urumva ni akazi kari hejuru, ari akazi ka politiki, akazi gafite amabanga y’igihugu n’ibindi bintu byinshi, gashobora no gutegura abanyapolitiki bo mu gihe kiri imbere. Of course [ni ukuri] no kwigisha ariko urumva ko ni utuzi tugiye gusa n’aho dutandukanye. Naho icyo kuvuga ko Kayibanda yari afite umugore w’umututsikazi, yego, nibyo  nanjye ibyo ndabizi kuba yari afite umugore w’umututsikazi nanjye biratangaje. Ibintu byagiye biba ku batutsi, bikabera ku batutsi muri za 59 (1959), kugeza na nyuma y’aho biratangaje kubona umuntu wari ufite umugore w’umutitsikazi hakaba hari ibindi bintu bitari byiza yakoreye Abatutsi. Ni icyo navuga. Naho ku byerekeranye na meeting yabereye mu Ruhengeri, Habyarimana yari afite akazi k’iwabo mu majyaruguru ariko ntibyamubuzaga kujya gukorera inama i Gitarama cyangwa kuza gukorera inama i Butare. Ni cyo nashakaga kugusubiza aho.

Canisius Karake: None se, Mugenzi, umbarize uwo mugabo

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Oya, arakumva, arakumva, sinkubariza! Yari yanyandikiye avuga ati “umbarize uyu mugabo” avuga wowe, uremera muvugane, none muvugane!

Canisius Karake: Ubu rero kuko njye ntari nakwandikiye ariko ubwo nari nibagiwe ko duhujwe n’ibi byuma, aravuga ibintu byinshi, ureba ukibaza niba azi u Rwanda cyangwa yararubayemo kuko nka hariya avuga ngo Perezida Kayibanda na none yari abangamiye urubyiruko kuko abanyeshuri bakomoka mu karere ka Majyaruguru atabahaga bourse, ari izo kujya hanze ari izo kwiga muri Universite (Kaminuza) y’u Rwanda. Njye ndibaza: uwo muntu uvuga ibyo ese azi yuko Habyarimana amaze gufata ubutegetsi muri 1973, yashyizeho abaminisitiri bashya, agashyirabo abatware b’ingabo bashya, agashyiraho ba secretaires generaux muri za minisiteri, agashyira ba Directeurs generaux muri za minisitiri kandi ko byaje kugaragara ko nawe abyivugira yuko Habyarimana yakoze akazu k’iwabo, yumva abo baminisitiri, abo bakozi ba leta bakuru bagiye muri iyo myanya muri 72 (1972), Habyarimana se yaba yarabakuye muri CERAI yo muri Karago? Abo banyeshuri niba bataragiye hanze kwiga, ntibige muri Universite (Kaminuza) y’i Butare, bize he? Ese uwo mugabo we yize hehe? Wize ryari kandi wize hehe?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Njye nize, nagiye kuvuka mvuka Habyarimana ari we utegeka, navukiye ku babyeyi batandukanye: umubyeyi umwe ava mu majyaruguru, undi ava mu majyepfo. Byatumye nkurukirana ubuzima bwa Kayibanda, nkurikirana uburyo yabayeho, nkurikirana n’ubuzima bw’abantu bo mu majyaruguru no mu majyepfo. Ibyinshi tuvuga ni ibyo nagiye numvana abantu bakuru bo mu majyepfo n’abo mu majyaruguru batandukanye.

Canisius Karake: Hari ubwo wageze kwa sogokuru nk’uko abandi bana babigira?

 Utashatse kwivuga izina: Yoooo! Narahabaye igihe kinini. Habyarimana nemera ko yashyizeho akazu, akora n’amakosa, yiharira ubutegetsi. Yakoze amakosa asa n’ayo Kayibanda yakoze. Yaramuhiritse, yavuga ngo “twanze kwikubira, kwikanyira [kwikanyiza]”, nawe arikanyiza, arikubira, nawe agundira ubutegetsi, nawe ashaka gutegeka nk’umwami. Icyo nicyo kintu nyamukuru kimbabaza: agafata ubutegetsi arega umuntu ibintu, yagera ku butegetsi nawe agakora ibisa n’iby’uwo yasimbuye cyangwa se agakora ibibi birenzeho. Ni nacyo kibazo n’ubungubu n’abari ku butegetsi muri iki gihe bafite, bariya bo muri FPR, nta kintu ubona baba barigiye ku mateka y’u Rwanda. Bakora ibibi birenze ibyo abababanjirije. Nkunda kwibaza “Ni kuki Habyarimana yakoze coup d’etat?” Najya kumureba nawe ibyo yakoze nta kintu yigeze akosora. Hari ikindi kibazo nibaza: kuki Kayibanda yafashe ubutegetsi? Yego Abahutu bari barakandamijwe ariko wenda aho ushobora kumfasha, Karake ushobora kuba ubindusha, numvise ko Rudahigwa biriya bintu by’ubuhake yari yarabikuyeho, biriya bintu by’ikiboko yari yarabikuyeho. Ibintu birimo bihinduka ariko Kayibanda ageze ku butegetsi, Abahutu bari barakandamijwe noneho Abahutu arabaribera [arababohora], akandamiza Abatutsi, nawe ashaka gutegeka nk’umwami. Ibyo bintu nibyo binrya ku mutima. Umuntu akarwanira ubutegetsi, akabujyaho ati “ngiye guhindura ibintu” Yahagera agakora amakosa y’abo yasimbuye ahubwo akanarenzaho. Aho ndumva , iyo niyo point yanjye. Niho ngarukirije.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Niho agarukiye. Duse n’abarangiza Karake.

Canisius Karake: Ibyo bibazo by’uwo muhungu ndabyumva. Ntabwo mpakana rwose ko mu butegetsi bw’u Rwanda nta makosa yahabaye ariko yahaba yagira, ntabwo tugomba kuvanga ibintu. Namubwiye ko niba yarakurikiye ikiganiro cyanjye nifuje ko Abanyarwanda twazahura tukaganira ibintu by’u Rwanda kuko ni birebire cyane kandi ni byinshi. Nagira ngo gusa muhe nk’akagero gato cyane muri ibyo ng’ibyo avuga ngo ubuhake bwari bwaraciwe. Ndagira ngo muhe urugero rw’umugabo wari chef mu Rwanda hariya mu Bufundu, yahunze muri 59, ageze i Bujumbura, ubwo yari afite Abahutu hariya muri za Butare na Gikongoro, Gikongoro icyo gihe yari itarabaho, yandikira umugaragu we, aramubwira ati “tuzahurire ku Kanyaru, ushoreye za nka  nakugabiye, tuzigabane kuko 59 yageze nkiguhatse, tutaragabana kandi mu by’ukuri amateka atubwira yuko ubuhake Rudahigwa yabuciye muri 1954. Ntabwo byabayeho rero kuko na Rudahigwa iyo muri 1959 aza kuba akiriho, aba yaributse kugabana n’uwari umuhatse igihe yari akiri umusushefu, ataraba umwami. Ubwo ndagira ngo ndabwira umunyarwanda arabyumva.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko ni uko unyura kure, ugaca amarenga, vuga Karake!

Canisius Karake: Ariko ntabwo ncira (amarenga?) injiji.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: N’uwo muvuga, sinzi niba abyumvise, urasobanukiwe?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ntabwo nabyumvise, ntabwo nasobanukiwe.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Urabyumva! Ntabwo yasobanukiwe;  bwira n’ukurikiye ikiganiro, Karake!

Canisius Karake: Ndagira ngo uwo muhungu asubize amaso inyuma kandi gusubiza maso inyuma ntabwo ari uguhumiriza: ibintu avuga asa n’uvuga ko Kayibanda avuga ko ari we wabikoze kandi byarakozwe na Rudahigwa cyangwa byarakozwe n’abandi imbere ye. Mu by’ukuri Abanyarwanda dufite indwara ikomeye cyane tuzagerageza kwisuzumisha  no kwivuza muri ya nama nifuza ko tuzahuriramo: ni indwara yo kwirengagiza kandi hari umugani baca mu kinyarwanda ngo “uwo umwami yahaye amata, niwe wamwimye amatwi” ngarutse kuri bariya bantu mvuga bakoze ishyano muri 73, Kayibanda yari yarabakamiye.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Yes [yego]. Aho ho turi kumwe.

Canisius Karake: Nta munyarwanda ushobora kubijyaho impaka.

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Aho nta mpaka tuhajya rwose.

Canisius Karake: Kandi “ugirirwa ineza n’uwo yayigiriye aba agira Imana”. Ibyabaye mu Rwanda rero njye mbyita amarorerwa kandi abakunda u Rwanda bose twifuza yuko ibyo bintu bitazongera. Hanyuma amakosa yagiye akorwa akazakosorwa, ubwumvikane buke bwagiye buba hagati y’abantu, abantu bakareba uko bagira ubusabane n’ubworoherane. Umuntu ntiyumve ikintu uko ashaka kucyumva, ahubwo akacyumva uko cyavuzwe wenda ntacyemere kuko atagomba kucyemera atagishaka cyangwa bidahuje n’uko igitekerezo cye kibimubwira ariko umuntu yumva ikintu kivuzwe n’umuntu wagihagazeho, ugifitiye ibimenyetso, ntiyigire nka wa mutwa babwiye ngo “najya muri parquet ngo anangire.” Kunangira ntabwo ari byiza n’ubwo ari umuco mubi w’Abanyarwanda ariko se niba abakiri bato, nk’uwo muco wo kunangira cyangwa umuco wo gutsimbarara ku kintu kandi ufitiye ibimenyetso bidahuje n’uko ubizi, abo bato batabikoze ibyo bintu byazakorwa ryari? U Rwanda rwacu rwazamera rute?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Muzehe ntabwo ari ugutsimbarara ahubwo ntabwo ari no gupfa kwemera, kwikiriza ibintu byose ubonye, ntabwo ari byiza. Ukora ‘analyse’ [isesengura],  ukumva ibintu bitandukanye, ugasoma ibintu bitandukanye, ugakora ‘analyses’ zawe.

Canisius Karake: Njyewe biranshimishije ko imikorere yawe ari uko iteye, ngusabye kuzakora ‘analyse’ y’ibi bintu twagiye tuvugana n’ibimenyestso nagiye nguha numvise ko hari n’ibyo uzashaka kuri internet ndumva rwose iyo internet ntacyo izamvuguruzaho ahubwo nawe bizageraho bigutangaze, uvute uti “Tiens! [Ndatangaye!] Iyo menya ko ariko bimeze ntabwo mba niriwe mbaza biriya bibazo”

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ahubwo nzaguhamagara.

Canisius Karake: Nizeye ko iki kiganiro twagiranye hari icyo kikunguye!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Rwose ni Gahuzamiryango, ni Imvo n’Imvano. Ni ugushaka ukuri. Ni ukujya ku muzi, ugashaka imvo y’ikintu, nicyo dushaka kandi ni cyo tugamije. Ngira ngo niyo mpamvu waduhamagaye uri aho muri Amerika, niyo mpamvu na muzehe Karake yemeye kugusubiza, mukavugana mwumvikana, nta guterana amagambo. Ku bwanjye, nk’iki kiganiro ndumva ari cyiza.

Canisius Karake: Ni nayo mpamvu Mugenzi nemeye kujya nitabira iki kiganiro kuko nyine iryo zina ryacyo ry’Imvo: ni ugucukumbura, ni ugusubiza amaso inyuma udahumirije. Urumva?

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Ni byo, ni byo. N’ikindi kintu njye nakongeraho: amateka y’u Rwanda abantu bagiye bayigisha uko atari. Ufashe ubutegetsi wese ashaka gusiga ibara abo asimbuye bityo rero abatoya hari igihe bahuzagurika. Kubera iki? Kubera ko bagenda bigishwa ibintu bitari byo, buri muntu wese aba ashaka kwigira mwiza.

 Canisius Karake: Mugenzi niba unyemereye ntabwo nciye mugenzi wanjye mu ijambo, nagira ngo nguhe akantu k’akaganiro kameze nko gutebya ariko karimo ukuri: aribaza ibyo bintu, akavuga ati “Wa munyarwanda ni muntu ki?” Umutwa ngo yagiye kwigira batisimu, ni ukwiga imyiteguro yo kuzabatizwa, hanyuma umukuru w’inama ajya kubwira Padiri yuko ibyo bamwigishije yabimenye, ko ageze igihe cyo kubazwa ngo abatizwe. Noneho Padiri aravuga ati “uwo mutwa mumumpe nzamwibariza”. Padiri agiye kubaza umutwa aramubaza ati “umuntu ni iki?” Muri gatigisimu twigishijwe, Padiri yumvaga ko umutwa amusubiza ngo “umuntu ni ikiremwa cy’Imana kigizwe na roho idapfa n’umubiri uzapfa”. Abize gatisimu bose ku gihe cyanjye nibyo bigishijwe, bakabazwa batyo, bagasubiza batyo. Ariko umutwa Padiri yaramubajije ati “umuntu ni iki?”, umutwa aramubwita ati “Padi, ati n’ingano yawe, ntuzi umuntu? Urumva? Ati “Niba utamuzi, uzamubona!” Uwo muhungu rero wibaza nyine ukuntu Abanyarwanda bagira batya, bakagerekeranya ibintu, bagacura, bagacurika, bagacurura; azakomeze akore ubushakashatsi, ubwo akiri muto wenda azamenya Abanyarwanda!

Utashatse kwivuga izina: Urakoze, urakoze muzehe!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ok, reka nanjye mbashimire kuba mwemeye kuza muri iki kiganiro. Urakoze cyane kuba wazanye ibibazo byawe. Nshimire na Karake kuba yemeye kubisubiza muri iki kiganiro cy’Imvo n’Imvano! Mwese Ndabashimiye!

 Utashatse kwivuga izina: Murakoze!

 Canisius Karake: Murakoze!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka ndangirize kuri Major Jacques Kanyamibwa uri i Toullouse mu Bufaransa. Jacques, wadusabye ijambo umaze no kwandika inyandiko ni ndende niko navuga ndende: ni paji imwe hafi n’igice, uravuga uti “aka kaduruvayo kari mu banyapolitiki kandi bari mu shyaka rimwe, nta kundi mbona kari gukemurwa uretse abasirikare. Gukora coup d’etat muri kiriya gihe mbona byari ngombwa kugira ngo abanyapolitiki babanze basubize ubwenge ku gihe. Hagombaga umusifuzi. Gusa ikitaragenze neza ni uko umusifuzi yaje guhinduka umukinnyi, akanga kuva mu kibuga: agakina kandi akanasifura. Nafashe aya magambo asa nk’aho akubiyemo ibitekerezo byawe byose wanditse muri iyi nyandiko. Wabisobanura!

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Mbere y’uko nsubiza icyo kibazo nagira ngo mbanze nshimire iriya miryango y’ababuze ababo, bishwe biturutse kuri coup d’etat yo muri ’73 (1973) mbabwira ko n’igikorwa bakoze cyo kubibuka ari icyo gushyigikirwa. Ikindi, nabanza kuvuga, ndabwira abumva iki kiganiro ko ntavugira abasirikare bakoze iriya coup d’etat. Bamwe baracyariho, bashobora kwivugira kandi na coup d’etat yakozwe ntaraba umusikare.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Naranabashatse, naragerageje nanjye Jacques, ariko ntibyashoboka.

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Nta n’ubwo rero mvugira abiswe abanyenduga cyangwa abiswe abakiga kuko njye numva ntari umunyenduga, simbe n’umukiga: iwacu ni ku Kibuye. Ni cyo gituma, njyewe ndavuga nk’Umunyarwanda wabaye umusirikare. Ku bwanjye rero coup d’etat niwo wari umuti washobora gukemura ibibazo bya politiki no guhagarika akaduruvayo kari mu gihugu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: N’ubwo uvuga ngo ntuvugira abasirikare, ntabwo waba uvuga utekereza nk’umusirikare, Jacques?

Jacques Kanyamibwa:   Oya! Nshobora kuvuga ntekereza nk’umusirikare kuko nabaye umusirikare ariko mu gihe abanyepolitiki mu gihugu batacyumvikana ukuntu igihugu cyayoborwa ntawundi muntu ushobora kuba umusifuzi kugira ngo abantu bashobore kumvikana kubyo bakora, usibye abasirikare, kuko abasirikare ni bo neutres [ntaho babogamiye]. Ni cyo gituma mvuga ko hagomba umusifuzi. Ibyo navuze yuko umusifuzi yahindutse umukinnyi ntave mu kibuga, ni cyo kibazo cyabaye kuko ubundi nyuma y’umwaka umwe cyangwa ibiri, abasirikare bakoze coup d’etat bagombaga gusubiza abanyepolitiki ubutegetsi. Muri iyo myaka ibiri ubundi hagombaga gutegurwa irindi tegeko nshinga, hagategurwa amatora, demokarasi ikagaruka mu gihugu maze umusirikare ushatse kuguma muri politiki, agasezera akajya gukora politiki. Ariko ndagira ngo ngaruke gatoya ku mpamvu zateye kariya kaduruvayo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Eh nicyo nari ngiye kukubaza kuko wakoresheje ijambo akaduruvayo, ako kaduruvayo uvuga ni akahe?

Jacques Kanyamibwa:   Akaduruvayo kaje mu gihugu ubundi katewe n’ibibazo bya politiki byari mu gihugu. Impamvu natanga ni nk’eshatu gusa. Icya mbere ni ubushyamirane mu banyapolitiki b’i Gitarama n’abaturuka mu tundi turere cyane cyane mu Majyaruguru y’igihugu biturutse ku cyo bise guta umurongo. Byirukanishije abanyepolitiki cyane cyane intumwa za rubanda z’icyo gihe. Barimo n’uwategekaga inteko ishinga amategeko, Bicamumpaka nawe wavaga mu Majyaruguru. Imvano yabyo ikaba yarabaye raporo yakozwe na komisiyo y’Inteko Ishinga  Amategeko ku miyoborere y’igihugu noneho iyo komisiyo iza gusanga, igararaza ko mu Rwanda icyo gihe ubutegetsi bwari bwihariwe na Banyagitarama, ko imyanya muri leta yatangwaga hadakurikijwe ubushobozi ahubwo hakurikizwaga uturere, imiryango yabo bakomokamo n’icyenewabo. Noneho aho kugira ngo bashake uko bakosora ibyo ahubwo abakoze iyo raporo n’abayishyigikiye mu Nteko Ishinga Amategeko barirukanwa ndetse banirukanwa no mu mashyaka.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Iyo komisiyo yari yashyizweho na nde, Jacques?

 Jacques Kanyamibwa:   Komisiyo yari yashyizweho n’Inteko Ishinga Amategeko kubera ko mu Rwanda hari hari bibazo: byavugwaga yuko hari akarengane, ko hari ukwikubira ibyiza by’igihugu noneho Inteko Ishinga Amategeko ishyiraho komisiyo kugira ngo irebe niba ibyo bintu koko ari byo. Na perezidense yari yemeye yuko iyo komisiyo ijyaho. Impamvu ya kabiri ni ihindurwa ry’Itegeko Nshinga: ryakozwe ku itariki ya 18/05/1973, bahindura ingingo yavuga ko manda ya perezida yari isazwe ari imyaka ine, bayishyira kuri irindwi. Ubundi Perezida icyo gihe ntiyagombaga gukora manda enye zikurikiranye noneho iyo ngingo bayivanamo ku buryo Perezida yashoboraga noneho kwiyamamaza ubuziraherezo. Ibi byatumye abanyapolitiki benshi bivumbura, biyongera kuri ba bandi bari barigijweyo muri bimwe byo guta umurongo kuko bari bazi ko Kayibanda yari yamaze kurangiza manda ze, bizera ko nabo bashobora kwiyamamaza bagategeka igihugu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kuri icyo kibazo, mu mpaka hano hari abantu babiri bakigiyeho impaka: byari bimaze kugaragara neza ko Kayibanda aziyamamaza cyangwa yari yaramaze kwiyamamaza bamutoye?

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Kubera ko yagombaga gukora manda eshatu. N’iyo yari arimo yari iya gatatu. Iya kane niyo atari yemerewe noneho kubera yuko yari ayirangije nibwo bahinduye itegeko nshinga bavanamo yuko nta limite igihari, yewe bavanamo limite y’imyaka kuko ubundi bavugaga ko Perezida atagomba kurenza imyaka 60. Ibyo babivanamo, bavanamo n’inshuro zo kwiyamamaza ku buryo kwiyamamaza kugeza igihe azasazira.  Ubwo rero ni ukuvuga ko guhindura ubutegetsi ntibyari bigishobotse. Ni byo rero byatumye abantu batabyemeraga baratangiye nyine guteza akaduruvayo mu gihugu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Mu kanya twumvaga umwe mu bantu bari mu Rwanda asobanura, ati “hari kongere za MDR zagombaga guhura icyo gihe kugira ngo zige ikibazo cyari gihari” kuko ngo n’ishyaka ryabonaga ko mu gihugu hari ako kaduruvayo uvuga?

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Oui [yego] no mu ishyaka rya MDR-Parmehutu ibi byari byateje ikibazo gikomeye kuko harimo n’ibintu byo gushyira abantu ku malisiti kubera bwa bwikanyize navugaga n’icyenewabo, abantu bashyirwaga kuri lisiti, ntabwo ari muri Repubulika ya mbere no muya kabiri bwabayeho, mbese bashyiraga umuntu kuri lisiti atari uko abishoboye, (ahubwo) ari uko afite umuntu amushyirishaho. Nicyo cyateje ibibazo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kuri lisiti y’iki?

 Jacques Kanyamibwa: Lisiti y’abazatorwa. Nibyo bituma ziriya kongere kuko zarahagaritswe ku munsi wo gukora coup d’etat. Abantu bose bayitangaga ko hashobora kuzavuka imvurururu. Ni cyo cyatumye zihagarikwa. Naho ibyerekeye constitution, yo bari barayihinduye, inama ishinga amategeko yari yarayemeje. Umuntu wari utarayisinya ni Perezida Kayibanda kuko yari ikiri mu rukiko rw’ikirenga.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Icyo cyari icya kabiri wari uvuze, icya gatatu?

 Jacques Kanyamibwa: Impamvu ya gatatu nayo yateje ikibazo mu gihugu: ni ukohereza abasirikare bakuru mu buryo bwo kubigizayo kuko ubutegetsi bwa Kayibanda bwari bwaramaze kubona ko abasirikare bakuru hafi ya bose bakomokaga mu Majyaruguru y’igihugu. Aha ubutegetsi bwakoze irindi kosa: bafata ba officiers batoya batari abo mu Majyaruguru baba ari bo bashinga imirimo ikomeye mu buryo bwo kubakomeza kuko mu gisirikare bavuga ko “La fonction prime le grade”. Ni ukuvuga ko umurimo ukora uguhesha agaciro kurusha ipeti wambaye. Byarakaje abasirikare bakuru kuko batabonaga aho ibintu birimo kwerekera cyane cyane nyuma yuko ku itariki ya 27/06/1973 leta yasheshe abapolisi noneho ni ukuvuga ko abapolisi batagize amahirwe yo kurobwa ngo bashyirwe mu gisirikare, barirukanywe. Abavuze ko bariya ba officiers bakuru bajyanwe mu gisivile ngo kubera ko aribo bari bari inyuma y’imvururu zo kwirukana Abatutsi mu mashuri no mu bigo. N’iyo ibyo byaba ari byo, niyo baba babari inyuma, impamvu nyayo nyamukuru, ni uko ntawakumva ukuntu abasirikare baba bari inyuma yo kwirukana Abatutsi mu mashuri, mu kazi, muri leta no mu bigo byigenga noneho ngo ba basirikare babikora ubohereze kujya gutegeka bya bigo n’aya mashuri. Aha birerekana yuko atariyo mpamvu nyamukuru yatumye babaherezayo. Impamvu nyayo kwari ukugabanya mu ngabo umubare w’abasirikare bakuru bakomoka mu Majyaruguru y’igihugu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Aho rero, buretse gatoya Jacques, aho ibintu bishoboka ko byapfiriye ni mu gushinga kiriya gisirikare kuko hari igisirikare nasomaga hano bavuga: bashinga kiriya gisirikare cya mbere kuko cyashinzwe gato mbere yuko u Rwanda rubona ubwigenge n’Ababiligi, ukuntu bagiyemo, bariya ba mbere bagiyemo muri ririya shuri rikuru rya gisirikare. Ngira ngo batatu nibo batari abo mu majyaruguru, niba ntagiye gukabiriza?

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Usibye na officiers n’abasirikare basazwe kubera ko kugira ngo abasirikare benshi babe abo mu Majyaruguru ni politiki Kayibanda yari afite na Minisitiri w’Ingabo kuva muri 1963.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko ibyo ndavuga mbere bashinga igisirikare kuko igisirikare cyashizwe n’Ababiligi na Kayibanda ataragera ku butegetsi, [igisirirakare] cya mbere?

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Ariko rero na Kayibanda amaze kugera ku butegetsi, ni ukuvuga repubulika imaze kujyaho, iyo politiki yarakomeje. Yenda wavuga uti “ni uko n’ubundi abo babiligi bari bagishinze mbere nabo bari bagihari, yenda bari bafite influence ariko ndakubwira ko muri ‘63 habaye ibibazo by’abanyapolitiki b’i Gitarama n’ab’i Butare bari barimo uwitwa Nzeyimana na Rugira wategekaga Assemblée [Inteko ishinga amategeko] kubera ko bo bavugaga bati “igisirikare kigomba kuva mu maperefegitura yose noneho Abanyarwanda bose bakacyibonamo aho kugira ngo kibe icy’akarere kamwe”. Bamwe baravugaga bati “abasore bo mu Majyaruguru nibo bafite ibigango byo kuba baba abasirikare. Ni cyo bagendeyeho kugira ngo babe aribo baba benshi mu gisirikare. Ntabwo byatewe n’abantu bo mu Majyaruguru byatewe na politiki yari iriho icyo gihe. Yaba iy’Ababiligi, na nyuma yarakomeje kuko bariya bari bashyigikiye yuko abasirikare bava mu maperefegitura yose, ahubwo baje kubahimbira ibyaha, baravuga ngo “bararwanya gahunda za leta”, ngo “bari gushaka guhirika ubutegetsi” ahubwo barafungwa, barabirukana, bajya kubafungira ku makomini iwabo kugira ngo nkwereke yuko iriya gahunda leta yari iriho kugeza na Repubulika ya kabiri ije abasirikare iteka babaye benshi mu karere k’Amajyaruguru. Ikindi en fait [mu by’ukuri] nakongeraho nacyo bamaze gukora coup d’etat ikitaragenze neza yuko uwagombaga gusifura yaragumye nawe arakina ariko ikindi nacyo kigaragara kitagenze neza ni uko ubutegetsi bwashyizweho nyuma ya coup d’etat butakemuye bya bibazo byari biriho mbere: by’ubusumbane, byo kudasaranganya ibyiza by’igihugu na Repubulika ya kabiri ahubwo ikora nka byo noneho ahubwo birushaho ku buryo noneho wasanze ako karengane, uko kwikubira ku turere tumwe byarushijeho gukomera muri Repubulika ya kabiri kurusha ahubwo muri Repubulika ya mbere.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kuko ubwo noneho byarimutse biva mu Nduga bijya mu Majyaruguru?

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Non [oya] n’Abashiru bafashe ubutegetsi icyo gihe nabo bakoze nkabyo.

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Ariko ntibyabujije nawe kicyinjiramo icyo gisirikare nubwo atavaga mu Bushiru?

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Oya, birashoboka kuko kuva na kera na ba Ruhashya barinjiye. Nta gihe hatabayemo abantu umwe umwe, n’ubundi bari barimo. Ibintu byo kugira ngo mu Rwanda guhinduranya ubutegetsi kugira ngo bizagende neza hagomba abari ku butegetsi bakwimakaza gusangiza ubutegetsi abenegihugu bose.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Jacques, nubwo utacyanditse ariko mu kiganiro cy’ubushize narangije mbaza abari muri kiriya kiganiro: kugira ngo amaraso atongera kumeneka muri kiriya gihugu, umwe ashaka ubutegetsi akica undi, undi agashaka ubutegetsi akica undi, undi agashaka ubutegetsi (akica undi), ntibyongere kuba, u Rwanda rube rwiza, bahererekanye ubutegetsi mu mucyo. Wowe wumva haba iki?

Jacques Kanyamibwa: Ni uko abari ku butegetsi bakwimakaza gusangiza abenegihugu bose. Ibyiza by’igihugu ntibyiharirwe na bamwe gusa. Ikindi ni uko amateka yajya avugwa uko ari: amarangamutima ntiyitiranywe n’amateka. Ngarutse kuri biriya byabaye muri 1973, byavuzwe neza n’abakoze uriya muhango wo mu Bubiligi: bavuze ko ntabwo abanyagitarama bishwe n’abakiga kuko ababishe bafite amazina. Ababishe nibitwe amazina yabo bye kugerekwa ku batarabigizemo uruhare. Ikibazo cy’abakiga n’abanyanduga njye mbona kizarangizwa nuko buri munyarwanda wese asubiranye izina ry’akarere akomokamo. Kwiyitirira akarere cyangwa ubwoko ngo ni uko biri ku butegetsi ni ukwihemukira no guhemukira igihugu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ndagushimiye cyane Majoro Jacques Kanyamibwa ku bitekerezo utanze muri iki kiganiro. Bakunzi b’Imvo n’Imvano, hari benshi bari bateze amatwi ko mbahamaragara cyangwa ko tuvugana, bari bategereje ko ibitekerezo byabo bisohoka ntibyashobotse kubera ubwinshi n’uburemere ni ngombwa ko rero tuzakomeza kubagezaho ibitekerezo byabo mu kiganiro cyo mu cyumweru gitaha. Mwari kumwe na Ally Yusuf Mugenzi. Ni ah’ubutaha.

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