Soma Imvo n’Imvano yo ku wa 6/9/2014: Ngo FPR yatumye AbaPARMEHUTU bibukwa

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Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Mwaramukanye amahoro bakunzi b’ikiganiro Imvo n’Imvano. Imvo n’Imvano y’uyu munsi, tariki 06/09/2014 nayo yatumikiye abayisabye ijambo bifuza gutanga ibitekerezo byabo ku kiganiro cyahise ku itariki ya 23 z’ukwezi gushize ku kwibuka abanyapolitiki baharaniye ubwigenge bw’u Rwanda. Bicwa igisirikare cy’u Rwanda kimaze guhirika ubutegetsi bwa Perezida Gregoire Kayibanda ku itariki 05 Nyakanga 1973. Abakomoka kuri abo banyapolitiki bateguye umuhango wo kubibuka no kubasezeraho ku mugaragaro. Ibyo bakaba barabikoze ku nshuro  ya mbere mu myaka 41. Hari byinshi byahishuwe mu biganiro bibiri tumaze kubagezaho kuri ubwo bwicanyi bwabaye ibanga ndetse n’umuziririzo kubuvuga ku mugaragaro mu Rwanda. Kubera ubwinshi bw’ibitekerezo twakiriye kandi twumva ko bikwiye kuvuga twabateguriye ikindi kiganiro cya gatatu tubagezaho uyu munsi ariko nongere nisegure ku batwandikiye mbamenyesha ko tudashobora kubaha ijambo bose. Ikiganiro mwagiteguriwe na Ally Yusuf Mugenzi.

Reka duhere i Buruseli mu Bubiligi kwa Boniface Rutayisire, umuyobozi w’umuryango “Tubeho Twese”, akaba n’umuyobozi w’umutwe wa politiki Banyarwanda, ukorera mu mahanga.

Boniface, tumaze guhitisha Imvo n’Imvano yahise ku itariki ya 23 ikurikira imihango yabereye mu Bubiligi, yateguwe n’abavandimwe cyangwa abakomoka kuri bariya banyepolitiki bishwe mu Rwanda hakaba hari hashize imyaka 41, watwandikiye udusaba ijambo, nkoresha amagambo wanditse mu nyandiko yawe, uvuga uti “Nk’umuntu wabashishikarije ku mugaragaro no mu nyandiko gukora imihango yo kwibuka ababo”. Uti “Nari nkwiye guhabwa ijambo”. Nanjye ndakwemerera. Kuki wabashishikarije gukora iriya mihango?

Boniface Rutayisire: ni uko njyewe nk’umukuru wa Association y’abavictimes “Tubeho Twese” yibuka buri mwaka, nkaba n’umukuru w’ishyaka Banyarwanda naryo rishimangira izo gahunda, nabonye ko gutegura icyunamo cy’Abahutu n’Abatutsi buri mwaka noneho ugasanga mu bahutu harimo bamwe batibuka kubera biciwe n’abandi bahutu kandi ari igice kinini cy’Abanyarwanda, naje kubona ko bitaba bishwitse. Ubwo byamaze igihe kirere bitegurwa nk’umwaka wose noneho ariko muri uko kubashishikariza icyari kiri imbere ni uko na none icyo ugomba kumenye ni uko twe tugamije kubaka u Rwanda rw’Abanyarwanda bose. Ikindi gikomeye cyiza cyane: iyo urebye nk’imisangirire y’ubutegetsi igomba kubaho mu banyarwanda kugira ngo u Rwanda rube u Rwanda rw’Abanyarwanda bose. Njye ndabivuga nk’umukuru w’ishyaka Banyarwanda rigamije guteza imbere ubunyarwanda butagira uwo burobanura ariko muri ubwo bunyarwanda ndagira ngo nkumbwire ibyiza ni uko tuzirikana n’amateka igihugu cyahize rwagize. Nk’uyu munsi wa none leta iyo igiyeho ujya kubona, ukabona ibaye iy’abakigha cyangwa ibaye iy’abanyenduga cyangwa ibaye iy’Abatutsi. Ibyo bintu bitatu bihora bimira leta igiyeho ndetse n’amashyaka agiyeho usanga rimwe na rimwe rirabarwa muri kiriya gikuta cyangwa rirabarwa muri iki. Ibyo rero noneho kwirengagiza ibyo bintu biriho, ukavuga ngo nta bibaho ahubwo ibyiza ni uko uvuga uti “biriho” bakiyemeza gusangira ubutegetsi n’abandi banyarwanda. Aho nituhagera ni nabwo noneho tuzagera ku ntambwe igaragaza ko kwitwa umunyarwanda nta kindi wongeraho ari byo bizima. Ni nayo mpamvu nahagurutse nti “bariya bantu b’abanyanduga biciwe –twe kubica iruhande ingoma yabishe ni iyo mu bakiga- noneho bigatuma abanyanduga ubona basa naho batabaha kuko harimo icyo cyuho naravuze nti “Oya. Nabo nibibuke, babeho noneho umunyanduga agirane ibiganiro ku mugaragaro n’abakiga n’Abatutsi noneho n’abandi banyarwanda twese dusangire igihugu kuzageza igihe twumva ko kuba umunyarwanda ari cyo cyonyine gihagije tudakeneye kongeraho ikindi.

Mu ishyaka Banyarwanda twemera ko u Rwanda rutuwe n’Abahutu n’Abatutsi n’Abatwa n’abahutsi donc [mbese] imvange n’abandi ba naturalises bafashe ubwenegihugu ndetse n’abanyamahanga bahisemo gutura mu gihugu. Iyo uvanyemo umwe muri abo, igihugu kiba kituzuye. Ndanabivuga nkurikije ibibazo nanohe nkurikije ibibazo nahuye nabyo muri iyi gahunda ndimo yo kuvugira abavictimes bose no gushyira ubunyarwanda imbere: icya mbere nahuye nacyo ni iki: ni uko wasangaga babangamiwe no kumva ko abahutsi babaho. Kuvuga abantu bavanze bibangamira….

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ni Abantu bake cyane bemera abahutsi cyangwa bazi ikintu ‘hutsi’ kugeza ubu ngubu n’ubwo umaze imyaka ubikora ni bake babizi cyangwa babyemera Boniface?

Boniface Rutayisire: Kubyemera barabyemera kuko njyewe baranabingaragariza ndetse buri gihe mbonana n’abantu, nkurikirana no hirya no hino uko ibintu bigenda bimera. Icyo tugomba guharanira ni iki? Ni uko tugomba kubaka u Rwanda buri wese yisangamo yaba ari umuhutu, yaba ari umututsi, yaba ari imvange ntakandagirwe ahubwo akagira ijambo ringana n’iry’undi.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Muri uku gutegura imihango yabereye mu Bubiligi wakoresheje ijambo ko babikoze batinya, byabateye ubwoba. Kuki bagize ubwoba bwo gutegura iyo mihango?

Boniface Rutayisire: Njyewe ndagira ngo nkubwize ukuri: muri uko kuyitegura byateye ubwoba kuko hari abantu usanga batarashakaga ko icyo kintu kibaho: ngo ni ugucamo ibice Abahutu. Ngo ibyo bintu bazanye ubu ngo ni FPR yabizanye. Ibyo byose nagiye mbirwanya mbereka ko ntaho bihuriye na FPR kandi ahubwo bizana ubumwe kuko bishobora gutuma umukiga n’umunyanduga bagira na ikiganiro n’umututsi ku buryo bungana, banganya ijambo. Habayeho ikintu cy’iterabwoba rikomeye cyane. Kuba byaramaze imyaka 41 bifite ishingiro koko, byari biteye ubwoba kuko nanjye nagezaho rwose ngira za menaces [iterabwoba] ….

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Zituruka he?

Boniface Rutayisire: Iyo ubirebye usanga ari abantu wavuga ko bari mu bice bibiri: hari igice kiri iruhande rw’abantu babikoze, usanga bibara nk’aho ari benewabo cyangwa mu ishyaka ryabo cyangwa bavuga ngo baranduza ingoma yabo: ingoma ya Habyarimana. Hari n’abandi nanone usanga bacometse mu bazungu bategekaga icyo gihe b’abakolononi. Ni ukuri nkahano mu Bubiligi hari bantu baba bagifitanye contacts n’abo Babiligi. Noneho abo Babiligi bamwe bakaba badashaka ko icyo kintu kivugwa kuko baba bigararaza amafuti yakozwe n’abo bakoloni ba kera.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko Boniface, birashoboka ko abavuga ko ari akuzura akaboze baba bari mu kuri, imyaka 41 byari ngombwa kubikora?

Boniface Rutayisire: Kuko iyo ubirebye byonyine ndagira ngo nkwubwize ukuri: mu kwibuka kiliziya yuzuye amarira rwose si ukukubeshya, abantu hirya no hino bararira. Kubera iki? Ni ibintu byagiye mu bantu birabora, agahora yifuza, agahora atekereza ati “uwanjye yapfuye ate?” Bageza naho bavuga noneho ukuntu byagiye bigenda: bari barashyizeho imodoka imwe ngo ijyendamo ingobyi yo gutunda abo bantu: umwe avuga ngo agiye kuzana impongo ye, bagiye gufata abo bantu, bagiye kubica, bageza n’aho bavuga umukobwa umwe wari urimo muto, yapfuye bigoranye cyane, amaze iminsi myinshi baramwicishije inzara noneho ugasanga ni ibintu bibi byaboze bigiye ku mugaragaro. Ku buryo kiriya cyumano ahubwo cyagaragaje ko gipfunduye ibintu bigasohoka, bikaba ari n’ibintu byiza.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Bikaba bimaze iki rero?

Boniface Rutayisire: Icyo bimaze ni uko bishobora guca inzika, bishobora gutuma noneho kuko kuvura indwara ni uko ugomba kuba wayihanduye, ukayigaragaza, noneho ikajya ku mugaragaro. Nk’icyo kintu rero cy’abantu batukanaga: ni abantu usanga bafite ubwoba kuko wumvaga ko ari ikintu kibateye ubwoba nk’isi igiye kubagwa hejuru bituma rero bimara ubwoba abo bantu babikoze nanone bikabohora imitima y’abantu bibutse kuko nibura ako gahinda bamaranye imyaka 41 bagasohora, icyo kintu bigasa naho ari ugufungura akabati k’umubabaro ku buryo abo bashobora kuruhuka imitima ndetse bigatuma haba n’ubumwe n’ubwiyunge mu banyarwanda bose.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka turangiriza aho. Ndagushimiye cyane Rutayisire Boniface ku bitekerezo utanze mu Mvo n’Imvano.

Boniface Rutayisire: Ndagushimiye nanjye kandi ngushimiye ko wampaye ijambo!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Twakiriye kandi ubutumwa bwa Murangi Marcel, uri i Texas muri Leta Zunze ubumwe z’Amerika. Murangi Marcel, waranditse umaze kumva ibiganiro bibiri by’Imvo n’Imvano, wandika ibintu birebire ariko wenda ugerageze ubihine. Uzi byinshi kuko ziriya mvururu ziba wowe wari umunyeshuri, urangiza muri kaminuza, ntiriwe nkubwira nti “vuga iki”, icyatumye ujya ku mashini yawe, ukandika, uti “reka nandikire Imvo n’Imvano”, wenda icya mbere ushaka kuvuga ni ikihe?

Murangi Marcel: Icya mbere ni uko abantu bavuze mu kiganiro cyo ku itariki ya 23/08/2014 ni uko bavuze ko imvururu zatumye bahirika ubutegetsi bwa Kayibanda zatangiye mu kwezi kwa Kabiri 1973, iyo nsubije amaso inyuma kandi n’icyo gihe, nsanga imvururu zaratangiye muri 1968, nuko muri ’68 amashyaka yose uko ari ane yari amaze guhirima uretse ishyaka rya MDR-PARMEHUTU. Twebwe twari abanyeshuri, byageze muri 1970, u Rwanda rwari rufite ibihugu birukikije bitameranye neza.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Bisobanure mu magambo make buri gihugu, u Burundi byari bimeze gute?

Murangi Marcel: Micombero amaze gufata ubutegetsi hahise haba imvururu mu gihugu: Abahutu baratangira baratangira baba ménacés bo mu Burundi, Kayibanda na Micombero aho bagiranye umubano mwiza. Urabona ko ibitero by’inyenzi byahagaze muri ’67 niho umuntu yatekerezaga ko hagiye kuba agahenge.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Aho ni u Burundi, jya kuri Kongo rero, Kongo hano wanyandikiye ku byerekeraye ba Murere, byari bimeze gute ba Murere na Kayibanda na ba Mobutu?

Murangi Marcel: Ba Murere rero bari abantu bashakaga guhirika ingoma ya Mobutu kuko yari yarafashe ubutegetsi muri 1965. Mobutu yakoze uko ashoboye kose asa n’ubatsinze, bahungira mu Rwanda, bahungira i Cyangugu noneho bageze i Cyangugu Mobutu asaba ko Kayibanda yabamusubiza. Kayibanda arabyanga kugeza igihe Mobutu bimurakaje, ari nacyo gihe yajyaga yirirwa atuka Perezida Kayibanda n’u Rwanda: avuga ko u Rwanda ari agahugu gatoya kandi gafite n’umuperezida atambara amadarubindi.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Aho niho wanditse ngo “petit pays, petit President, sans lunettes”

Murangi Marcel: Yeee!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Agahugu gatoya, umuperezida mutoya, dore ko yari na mugufi, utambara n’amlunettes

Murangi Marcel: Ikibazo cya Kongo n’u Rwanda cyakomejh ekuba inzitane

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Hanyuma Uganda?

Murangi Marcel: Idi Amin amaze gufata ubutegetsi muri Uganda, uzi ko yamaze kugera ku butegetsi noneho agafata icyemezo cyo kwirukana abantu bitwaga abahindi bacururizaga muri Uganda bose bamwe bagiye muri Angleterre [mu Bwongereza], abandi basubira iwabo, abandi bahungira mu Rwanda. Bakiriwe n’u Rwanda n’ubutegetsi bw’u Rwanda, bubaha n’aho bakorera. Idi Amin rero ntibyamuyshimishije. Nibwo yatangiye kujya yikoma u Rwanda. Idi Amin yahoraga ahigira ubutegetsi bw’u Rwanda ko azarutera…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Tanzania rero, naho wabyanditse, uvuga ko hari ibyo Doctor Nkusi yavuze, ariko wowe uravuga ko Tanzania n’u Rwanda batari bameranye neza nk’uko byagaragaraga hejuru hagati ya Nyerere na Kayibanda?

 Murangi Marcel: Muri ‘61, muri ‘62, hari Inyenzi, abantu biyise Inyenzi. Ibyo bitero by’Inyenzi rero UNAR yari ifite abayoboke mu gihugu imbere n’abandi bari hanze y’igihugu. Abo bari hanze y’igihugu rero bari bafite ibirindiro i Dar es Salam kandi Nyerere yari abashigikiye ku buryo bugaragara. Urazi ko igihe bajyaga bajya muri za ONU, kuvuga ibibazo by’u Rwanda muri ONU, abari bahagarariye UNAR yo hanze nibo bakundaga kujyayo kandi nta handi bavaga, babaga bari i Dar es Salaam nibyo bakoreshaga byose ni Nyerere wabibahaga.

Muri ’70 ndumva no muri ’72 ruriya rutindo rwa Rusumo rujyaho niho Kayibanda yabonanye na Nyerere, ndumva ari naho batangiye kugerageza kugira ngo bakemure ikibazo cyari kiriho urumva muri uwo mwuka mubi, u Rwanda rwari rugahatiwe. Ibyo byose rero iyo tubiteranyije dusangha coup d’etat yo 1973 yaratewe ahanini n’impamvu nyinshi cyane cyane izirebana n’ubutegetsi bw’u Rwanda n’ububanyi n’amahanga.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kuri iki hari ijambo uvuga ngo Ambasaderi Karake yavuze ko Habyarimana yicishije bariya bavandimwe be, hanyuma ukavuga uti “hari ukuntu Valens Kajeguhakwa abisobanura, watubwira ibyo wasomye mu gitabo cya Kajeguhakwa wowe?

Murangi Marcel: Njyewe icyo nasomye mu gitabo cya Kajeguhakwa, ni uko Kajeguhakwa we avuga ingingo ya mbere aravuga ati “Habyarimana, MRND yaduhaye amahoro, iha abatwa amabati, naho Abahutu ibaha byose.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko aho ngaho Kajeguhakwa nawe ntabwo avugisha ukuri, ‘Abahutu ibaha byose’ muri iki kiganiro hari ukuntu berekana ko Abahutu bari ku ibere ari abo mu majyaruguru?

Murangi Marcel: Ntwabwo avuga ko ari abo mu majyaruguru, avuga ko Abahutu MRND yabahaye byose.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko wari mu Rwanda, ese wabonaga ari ukuri nawe?

Murangi Marcel: Mu by’ukuri, urabona iyo umuntu atari imbere y’ingoma hari byinshi atamenya ariko nkeka ko Habyarimana yafashe neza Abatutsi kurusha uko yafashe neza Abahutu  cyane cyane ab’i Gitarama.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ba uretse! Ayo magambo uvuga ntiyoroshye umuntu kukwemera ukuntu ubivuga n’ibintu bavuga kuri Habyarimana n’imibanire ye n’Abatutsi n’Abahutu, Wabisobanura?

Murangi Marcel: Erega urabona iyo usomye igitabo cya Kajeguhakwa, hari ahantu avuga ati “Abatutsi bakundaga kujya kwa Habyarimana, akabakira nta kibazo n’iyo bakomanga mu gicuku bakinjira”. Avuga Sebera, avuga Katabarwa…

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Nawe erega, nawe arimo na Kajeguhakwa.

 Murangi Marcel: Na Kajeguhakwa arimo, hari n’abandi bavuga Bigirumwami, Bigirumwami yitaga Habyarimana son fils [umuhungu we], hari n’abandi bavuga uwitwa niba ari Kanimba, hari n’abandi bavuga umupadiri witwaga Kageyo wabaga i Rambura. Nko muri icyo gitabo cya Kajeguhakwa we arabyemeza nubwo ntibuka paje abivugaho, avuga yuko iyo Habyarimana yashakaga gufata icyemezo gikomeye yabanzaga yajya gushaka inama kwa Bigirumwami. Urumva rero uwabinziza yaba andenganyije.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kuko n’ubuvuga ni umututsi: Kajeguhakwa?

Murangi Marcel: C’est ça [ni byo rwose] keretse niba muvuga yuko ari njye wagisomye gusa, hari n’abandi wenda bagisomye

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Oya! N’igitabo wakibwiye hano, paje ya 190 niko wanditse hano ukuvuga uti igitabo nacyo uracyita “Rwanda: De la terre de paix à la terre de sang et après”

Murangi Marcel: Ni bypo rwose. Urabona abantu yari yarashyize muri circuit ye harimo umupadiri witwa Ntagara, hari harimo… ni benshi arabarondora. Usomye icyo gitabo wabibonamo byose. Mu By’ukuri MRND ya Habyarimana hari igihe yakoze ibintu byiza kandi koko ingoma zose niko zigenda ariko ikintu MRND yahemutseho ni ukuba yarakuyeho ishyaka ryagejeje igihugu kuri independance hanyuma yamara kurikuraho n’abarishyizeho akabarimbagura. Ibyo bintu byatumye mu gihugu cy’u Rwanda hazamo ibibazo bikomeye cyane. Urabona ko abantu benshi bapfuye abenshi ni ab’i Gitarama yeho harimo n’abanyabutare n’abanyakibuye yego ariko iyo urebye neza usanga nka 85% ndetse na 90 % ari abanyagitarama.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Wowe wari muri Kaminuza, icyo gihe, urimo kurangiza, mu nyandiko hano wabwiye ngo “sinzi niba umuntu wse wari uciya akenge icyo gihe yashobora kutubwira umutegetsi wari warashyizeho urwego rwitwaga “comite du salut du pays”, ugomba kuba ubuzi kuko wari muri Kaminuza?

Murangi Marcel: Comite du salut public niko bayitaga mu by’ukuri

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Icyo ni igiki mbese?

Murangi Marcel: Hari abantu bazaga nijoro. Urumva? Bakandika ku nzugi z’amashuri, bakavuga bati “umwarimu kanaka, umwarimu kanaka, umunyeshuri kanaka, umunyeshuri kanaka, ntibinjire muri iri shuri! Bikozwe na comite du salut public. Abo bavuze ko batarinjira mu ishuri, abanyeshuri b’Abahutu bateraga hejuru bati “aba bantu koko ntabwo barinjira muri ishuri!” Byageze n’igihe hazamo abanyeshuri baturuka muri Nord nabo bakabashyira ku malisiti y’abantu batarinjira mu ishuri.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Abanyeshuri baturuka muri Nord, ni ukuvuga mu Majyaruguru?

Murangi Marcel: B’Abahutu, b’Abahutu!

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Nabo bakavuga ngo ntibinjire mu ishuri?

Murangi Marcel: None se ndakubeshya kandi narabibonaga? Ikibazo cyari gihari: abo bantu bashyizweho na nde?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Wowe ukeka ko ari nde?

 Murangi Marcel: Njyewe nkeka ko abo bantu bari abakozi b’ishyaka MDR-PARMEHUTU. Ntabwo wabwira ko hari undi muntu wari warabashyizeho kuko hari n’igihe twigeze nko muri ’70, ndumva ari muri 1970 twigeze kujya mu nama ya SEKA

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Mu nama y’iki?

Murangi Marcel: Ryari ishyirahamwe ry’abanyeshuri bitaga SECA: Secretariat des Etudiants de Centre Afrique. Tugeze ahantu hitwa i Rutongo, njyewe nkomoka mu majyaruguru y’igihugu, twari mu modoka baraduhagarika.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ni ba nde babahagaritse?

Murangi Marcel: Ni abantu bari bambaye sivile peee. Bareba abantu bari muri iyo modoka, baratubwira ngo “twe kugira ubwoba”, ngo “ni comite du salut public”. Ibyo bintu rero twagombye kureba impamvu zatumye coup d’etat yo muri ‘73 iba izo ari zo kandi ntitubigire urwitwazo rwo gucagagurana.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Hari umwe nabajije, nshaka muri aba bantu bitwa ko cyangwa bavugwa ko bari muri icyo gisirikare cy’icyo gihe, arabwira ngo “umuntu umwe wenyine gusa wabikubwira, ntakiriho, abwira ngo “ni Habyariamana”.

Murangi Marcel: Ni uko rero urumva ko ari insobe, njye ntekereza ko Habyarimana na Kayibanda n’abafasha ba Kayibanda ari bo bazi neza impamvu zatumye haba iriya coup d’etat ariko abaturage ndakubwira ko iyo coup d’etat iba, abaturage bose bariruhukije.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Bariruhukije?

 Murangi Marcel: Ntabwo nari hose ariko basa n’aho bakiriye icyemezo cyari kimaze gufatwa n’abasirikare cyo guhirika ubutegetsi bwa Kayibanda reka n’abanyamahanga icyo gihe nta […] cyangwa igihugu cy’amahanga cyavuze ko kinenga cyangwa se gikondana coup d’etat yabaye i Kigali.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Wowe uravuga muri iyi nyandiko, uravuga ngo ikibazo gihari ni uko abantu bararuma, bagahuha. Bakagisohorana amarangamutima, ikibazo ntikijye ahagararara, bakageza n’aho bemeza ko umutekano w’igihugu cyose wari mu maboko y’abategetsi baturuka mu Rukiga, kuko ibindi wabisobanuye, ariko iki cyo kuruma no guhuha, batagararagaza ukuri kandi twebwe dushaka ukuri. Wowe ukuri ushaka kuvuga ni ukuhe?

Murangi Marcel: Icyo nshaka kuvuga: ni uko amakimbirane yabaye mu gihugu hagati y’abanyanduga n’abakiga byaturutse kuri iriya coup d’etat Habyarimana akaba yarishe bariya bantu nta mpamvu igaragara kandi ari bo bari barabohoje igihugu, baragikuye mu buja. Ikindi nshaka kuvuga ni uko kugira ngo iriya coup d’etat ibeho ni uko hari impamvu zayibanjirije kandi twese twabonaga. Urabona ko muri repubulika ya mbere, ubutegetsi bwose –uretse bariya ba Habyarimana bavugwa- ubutegetsi bwose bwari mu maboko y’abanyagitarama. Hari abavuga ko byaterwaga ngo na Habyarimana wari ufite ingabo mu nshingano ze, ngo na Nsekarije ngo wari uyoboye abapolisi, ngo na Lizinde ngo wakoraga muri Minisiteri ngo ishizwe imishinga na porogaramu. Hari n’abandi bavuga ko ngo hari Minisitiri w’ubutegtsi bw’igihugu ngo ari Sebatware Andre: aho ngaho ntabwo nemeranywa nabo kuko Nsekarije yategekaga ishuri ry’abapolisi ni byo ariko ntabwo yigeze urumva umuyobozi w’ishuri ntaho ahuriye na politiki. Ikindi, bavuga ko uwari ushizwe iperereza yari Kanyaregwe, urazi ko Kanyaregwe bari bamaze kumuvanaho icyizere, baramushyizeho uwitwa Komanda Nyamwasa, nako umenya ari Kapitene ntabwo nibuka neza n’uwitwa Seyanga. Ntabwo rero abavuga ko Habyarimana yakoze coup d’etat kubera ko Kayibanda yari atangiye kuzamura abasirikare bo mu rwego rwo hasi, abaha imirimo ikomeye, ntabwo ari byo kuko Perezida Kayibanda ntabwo yashoboraga gufata umusirikare ngo amuhe umwanya atabigiriwemo inama na Habyarimana. Kayibanda yari umuntu ukunda ukuri, yari umuntu ukunda icyo bita inzego z’ubutegetsi ze kandi akazubaha. Ni yo mpamvu rero mu by’ukuri twagombye kureba impamvu nyazo, niba atari uko abari bungirije Perezida Kayibanda bamukoresheje amakosa, bigatuma ajya afata ibyemezo bitajyana igihugu aheza. Ntabwo Kayibanda ariwe wigiriye inama yo kuvanaho mu myanya bariya basirikare bakuru, bamwe ngo abohereze mu byayi, abandi abohereze mu mashuri, abandi abohereze simbizi. Mu by’ukuri, ntabwo ibyo bitekerezo byaje bikomotse kuri Kayibanda kuko Kayibanda niwe wari warishyiriyeho ingabo, niwe wari warishyiriyeho igisirikare cye, niwe wari uzi abamubangamiye n’abatamubangamiye.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka turangirize aho ngaho rero nanjye ndagushimiye Bwana Murangi Marcel ku bitekerezo utanze mu Mvo n’Imvano! Urakoze cyane!

Murangi Marcel: Nawe murakoze Bwana Mugenzi!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Undi wagusabye ijambo ni Desire Habiyambere uri mu gihugu cy’Ubusuwisi. Tuvugana wabwiye ko wasabye ijambo kubera ko cyane cyane  ziriya mvururu zabaye mu ntangiriro zo muri 1973 warazibonye, wari umunyeshuri i Kabgayi mu iseminari, ufite imyaka 17, uravuga ko uko wabibonye: wabonye ko abasirikare bagize uruhare mu koshya abanyeshuri kugira ngo bajye muri ziriya mvururu, wabisobanura?

Desire Habiyambere: Mbere yo kugira ngo nshobanure ibyo gatoya, nari mu seminari ntoya i Kabgayi ariyo bitaga Saint Leon, ikiriho n’ubungubu. Nari mu mwaka bavuga ko 4eme Latine ni ukuvaga ko ari twe muri uwo mwaka twari bakuru kuko icyiciro cya kabiri cyabaga i Kigali kuri Saint Paul. Imvururu rero zitangira koko nari mpari muri ’73. Mbere y’uko bigera mu iseminari, Padiri Mukuru yaduhamagaye turi abanyeshuri batatu…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Padiri Mukuru yari nde ubwo?

Desire Habiyambere: Padiri ni Rusingizandekwe Jean Marie Vianney, aduhamaraga turi abanyeshuri batatu. Babiri b’Abahutu n’undi umwe w’umututsi. Hari nko mu kwezi kwa kabiri, kwa Gatatu [1973] ntabwo nibuka neza, atubwira ko hari ibintu by’imvururu birimo biba hirya no hino mu mashuri, ko atifuza  na gatoya ko bizagera mu iseminari, adushinga kugira ngo tuzabe twamubwira ikintu cyose twabona gishaka guhungabanya umutekano mu baseminari. Abanyeshuri bigaga za Byimana na Shyogwe bateye ikigo cy’abafurere, cyari i Kabgayi cyegeranye na seminari, bacyitaga JUVENA des Freres Jesuites, cyigagamo abanyeshuri, mu by’ukuri abenshi muri abo banyeshuri bari n’Abatutsi uko byaje kugarara nyuma, babanza kuza gukora ikintu kimeze nko gutanga gasopo, babwira abafurere yuko bagomba kwirukana Abatutsi, Abafurere bitabaje ubutegetsi, babohereza ababarinda b’abasirikare ariko uwo munsi byarageze noneho baratera, bariya basirikare nta kintu babashije kubikoraho, sinamenya niba byari ubushake cyangwa ari intege nke.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko bari bahari?

 Desire Habiyambere: Bari bahari ndetse uwo munsi ndabyibuka ko nagiye kuvuza inzogera kuko mu byo nari nshizwe byari birimo, nkumva urusaku rw’isasu. Ubwo ngo bari barashe hejuru, ni ko twaje kubyumva noneho ariko ntibyababuza kwinjira mu kigo, binjiramo birukana Abatutsi, barabakubita ndetse bamwe barapfa ku buryo ikigo cyasigaye ari presque vide [cyasigayemo abantu bake cyane] kuko mu by’ukuri Abahutu bahigaga bari bake.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Bigakorwa abasirikare bareba?

Desire Habiyambere: Bari bahari. Nta mu nyeshuri mu bakoze waba yakomerekejwe n’abasirikare.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Mwateye n’abanyeshuri bavuye he ubwo?

 Desire Habiyambere: Ntabwo ari twe bari bateye. Bari bateye muri JUVENA: mu kigo cy’abafurere twari tubangikanye. Bari bavuye i Shyogwe no mu Byimana ahubwo rero bagiye kuza ku iseminari basanze Padiri Mukuru, Rusingizandekwe ahagararanye na Musenyeri Perraudin, nibo mu by’ukuri babinginze, bababuza kugera mu kigo cya seminari noneho bakomeza ahubwo bajya gusahura i Gitarama kuko twaje kubabona nyuma bataha, bikoreye ibintu; ubutegetsi rero bwo mu kigo icyo bwakoze ni uko nyuma twaje kubona abasirikare baza kuturinda kugira ngo hatazagira umuntu udutera. Impamvu rero njyewe mvuga ko abasirikare babigizemo uruhare: ubwa mbere baraje rwose ndibuka umwe twari twaramwise na kazina kitwa “Ndabazambya” kuko yajyaga utubwira ngo “aratuzambya nituramuka duteye ikibazo” kandi yari umuntu, ukurikije n’imvugo ye ukomoka mu Majyaruguru, yavugaga igikiga, akajya ahubwo yihererana abanyeshuri b’Abahutu, akababwira ati “ibyo abandi bakoze, kuki mwe mutabikora?”

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko birashoboka ko yari umwe wenda afite ako kantu ariko  abandi atari ko bameze?

Desire Habiyambere: Oya, impamvu uwo nguwo ari twafashe mu mutwe ni uko n’abandi bose niyo yari imvugo yari imwe.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Biriya rero byavuzwe abo twatumiye mu kiganiro cya mbere bavuga ko igisirikare cyabigizemo imbaraga, birashoboka ko ari ukuri?

Desire Habiyambere: Njye ni ko bigararagara nkurikije na za temoignages [ubuhamya] nagiye numva n’ahandi mu bindi bigo by’amashuri kuko twari dufite abavandimwe biga hirya no hino. Wasangaga byose bikorwa ku buryo bumwe, hari abanyeshuri bakomoka mu Majyaruguru akenshi, bafite amacontacts n’abantu bo mu gisirikare nka ba Lizinde. Ku buryo ari bo nyine ari bo bagirana utunama, bakagaruka bashyushya abandi imitwe ahubwo byageze aho biradogera ariko twebwe iwacu mu iseminari  ntabwo byabaye kuko twese twakomokaga mu maperefegitura ya Gitarama na Kigali. Uretse wenda abimukira bashoboraga kuba bari hirya no hino kuko ayo maperefegitura ariyo yari agize diyoseze ya Kabgayi mu bindi bigo byageze n’aho bihasatira. Noneho, abanyeshuri b’Abahutu bakomoka mu yandi maperefegitura uretse abo ayo Majyaruguru, ugasanga barabatuma amabuku.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Amabuku ni iki?

Desire Habiyambere: Amabuku ni ziriya ndangamuntu za kera zo ku bw’Ababiligi, zagaragazaga nyine umuntu n’ubwoko bwe, nizo bemeraga, iza vuba bari batakizemera.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Nizo ndangamuntu z’icyo gihe?

Desire Habiyambere: Iza kera. Bagombaga kuzana amabuku ya ba sekuru cyangwa ya ba se.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ko hari batubwiye mu kiganiro cya kabiri, hari uwabajije ati “ubundi igisirikare cyubahiriza ibyemezo by’abategetsi”, bakavuga bati “nk’ubwo ababurugumesitiri, abakonseye, abafataga ibyemezo ni abo bategetsi, bati “ibyo ari byo byose igisirikare gishobora kuba kibeshyerwa, hari inyuma abo bategetsi ni ukuvuga abo bnyepolitiki?

Desire Habiyambere: Ibyo ntabwo byemera kubera ko natanga nk’ibimenyetso bibiri: nk’uwo mupadiri, Vianney Rusingizandekwe: yari umuntu, nta banga ririmo, uri hafi rwose, wegereye ‘close’ nk’uko babivuga mu Cyongereza cyangwa mu Gifaranga ‘approche” ya Kayibanda ariko we yari yafashe disposition, aduhamagara icyo gihe, atwihanangiriza ngo ibyo bintu ntibizahabe. Iyo aba rero abantu begereye Kayibanda ari bo babishyigikiye, ntabwo yari kubyifatamo gutyo. Ikindi cya kabiri: nyuma y’izo mvururu, haje kuza kuko twe baraducyuye bigeze aho barongera baratugarura mu kigo, haje kuba ibyo bise ‘tournees de pacification’

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: ‘Tournees de pacification’ ni ukuvuga…?

 Desire Habiyambere: Ni ukuvuga kongera kugarura amahoro mu gihugu. Twebwe ku iseminari haje uwitwa Nyiribakwe, yakomokaga i Gitarama. Ntabwo nzi initiative yo guhosha ibyo ngibyo, ababizi wenda babitwereka, yaba yarakozwe n’abari bafite ubutetsi bakomoka mu Majyaruguru ari bo uwari Minisitiri wa Interieur, Sebatware cyangwa uwategekaga ‘les forces de l’ordre’ cyangwa ‘meme’ za Maneko ngo zibe twarabone hari za initiatives zakoze zo kugira ngo ibyo bintu bihagarare. Abanyeshuri bose bakoze ibyo ngibyo baridegembyaga, bakagenda, bakazenguruka igihugu cyose mu mamodoka rimwe na rimwe batse abantu, barekizisiyonye mu bacuruzi, bakava nk’i Butare bakajya kwirukana ku Kibuye. Nta na hamwe bigeze bahutazwa ngo byibura habe umwe yaba yafatwa ngo afungwe kandi uwari kubafunga ndumva atari abapoliticiens bari kubafunga cyangwa kubahagarika ndumva ari abantu bari bashizwe [umutekano w’igihugu] uretse ko hari bantu bavuga bati “yari amaze kuvanaho polisi”, ati “ubwo ntibyari bigishyobotse” ariko rero abasirikare nibo bakoraga iyo ‘mission’. Ikindi kigaragaraza ko ubutegetsi bwari bugiyeho bwari bushyigikiye ibyo bintu by’ivangura: ni ukuntu nyuma ya coup d’etat, bamaze gufata ubutegeti haje kuba imvururu hagati y’abanyeshuri bigaga mu ishuri ry’ubuganga i Kigali “Ecole d’Assistants Medicaux”, bararwana hagati yabo abakiga n’abanyenduga.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Bapfaga iki?

 Desire Habiyambere: Bapfaga nyine ibyo bibazo byari byaratangiye gututumba hagati y’abakiga n’abanyenduga. Ni uko Lizinde ajya gufungira abanyeshuri bahoze aho muri Assistants Medicaux b’abanyagitarama n’abakomoka mu Majyepfo, ajya kubafungira hariya mu tannerie, niko bahitaga icyo gihe kera ariko hariya hahoze ari SOPEPAR kuri Nyabugogo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Hari gerezacyangwa ….?

 Desire Habiyambere: Niho yabaraje gusa. Icyo gihe hari usine [uruganda], bucya abirukana. Ntibongera no gusubira kwiga.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Abirukana ntabwo yari umwarimu, yabirukanye ashingiye kuki?

Desire Habiyambere: Barabirukanye gusa kuko ibyo byari bimenyerewe ko umuntu wo muri Maneko yirukana abantu na ba Sendashonga ni uko birukanwe muri universite. Birukamwe na surete y’u Rwanda, ntabwo birukanwe na universite.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko aho ngaho yari amakimbirane hagati y’abanyenduga n’abakiga ntabwo ari hagati y’Abatutsi n’Abahutu?

Desire Habiyambere: Oya. Bari abakiga n’abanyenduga kuko nyine nk’uko nigeze ndumva nigeze kubivugaho: ayo makimbirane byageze aho bakajya biyirukanira abanyeshuri bakomoka mu Majyepfo ari cyo cyatumye abantu bafungura amaso, bakabona ko atari ukwirukana Abatutsi gusa ariko harimo n’ikindi kibazo cyihishe inyuma.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Hanyuma ikindi twaganiriye ubwira ni ku byerekeye ‘comite y’ubumwe bw’igihugu” imaze gufata ubutegetsi, uravuga ko “nta kintu kigaragara yafashe, kurenganura abari bararenganyijwe niba koko atari bo bari inyuma yabyo?

Desire Habiyambere: Icyo rero nicyo nyine kinyereka ko mu by’ukuri bashobora kuba bari babifitemo uruhare, baravuga bati “igihugu cyari kigiye kugwa mu rwobo” ariko banyeshuri bose bagiye muri ibyo ngibyo: baba abo mu Majyaruguru, baba abo mu Majyepfo, nta n’umwe wigeze ahanwa. Yewe ubanza nta n’uwo bigeze bahamagara ngo babahe gasopo. Nta cyemezo na kimwe kigeze gisohoka gihumuriza abanyeshuri bari barirukanwe kuko hari abanyeshuri tuzi bari barirukanwe bamwe batabashije gusubirayo, bamwe bagiye basubirayo ari nko ku mpuhwe z’abayoboraga ibigo. Nta cyemezo kigeze gifatwa kivuga giti “hari abantu bahagaritswe ku kazi kuri ya malisiti bagenda bamanika”, ati “ bose bagomba gusubizwa ku kazi”. Njyewe ubwanjye nzi abantu, umwe yari n’umubyeyi w’umwana twiganaga, birukanwe mu masosiyeti hariya muri za Hanton and Cookson icyo gihe kera, babaye bashomeri kuva icyo gihe kugeza bapfuye kandi batigeze bahunga ngo bave mu Rwanda. Ikindi njyewe mbona kigaragaza ni ukuntu za ‘mechanismes’ zishyirwaho nyuma kugira ngo icyo kintu cyo gucunga no kuryamira bamwe kigumeho. Izo ‘mechanismes’ zaje, haje ibintu byitwa equilibre regional et ethnique, ibyo bintu ntabwo mu mashuri kera abantu batsindaga bajyaga mu bya equilibre.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Equilibre ni iyi ngiyi yo kuvuga 10%, icumu ku ijana?

 Desire Habiyambere: 10% noneho bizamo na equilibre z’akarere.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Igihe cya Kayibanda ntabwo byari bihari?

 Desire Habiyambere: Ibyo bintu ntibyabagaho.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Habiyambere, uvuga gutyo hari abantu bashobora kuba batabyemera kuko mu kiganiro cy’ubushize hari umuntu wavuze ko Kayibanda atari afite ibintu by’ivangura ry’amoko, abantu bamwe barahaguruka, bavuga ko atari byo, n’ubwo wari umwana, n’ibi ngibi urimo kuvuga: wowe wigeze ubona nk’ikintu cy’ivangura cyagaragaraga, ndavuga aho ngaho mu mashuri, aho wigaga?

Desire Habiyambere: Tugumye mu by’amashuri kuko ntabwo navuga uko byagendaga mu gutanga akazi muri leta cyangwa mu bigo byigenga, ibyo ntabwo nari mbizi, nari muto ariko ndebye ku by’amashuri, aho twigaga hariya i Kigali kuri Sainte Famille, iteka wabonaga hatsindaga abana b’abahanga. Ku bwanjye rero nkabona aho ngaho kuri Sainte Famille ntabwo hatsindaga abantu hakurikijwe ubwoko bwabo, habaga batsindaga ari abahanga. Urugero natanga ni uko twe turangiza muri 1968 badusubirishijemo ikizamini cya leta kubera ko nyine abo barimu kubera kurwana ishyaka hari ukuntu bamwe bari baramenye ibizamini, bakabitwigisha noneho baza gusanga ko Sainte Famille hatsinze abantu benshi ku buryo budasobanutse, tugomba gusubiramo. Badusubirishijemo ikizami rero twese uko byagenze nyuma hatsinze abana babiri gusa: abo bana babiri bombi bari Abatutsi.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Abahutu muratsindwa?

Desire Habiyambere: Abahutu gusa? Ni Abahutu n’Abatutsi bose bandi baratsinzwe, hagiye abo bana babiri gusa. Ni nayo mpamvu ahubwo n’abirukanye abanyeshuri b’Abatutsi muri ’73 babazizaga ko ngo ari benshi cyane mu mashuri.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Abatutsi?

Desire Habiyambere: Yego, muri za universites no muri za secondaires. Ibi rero bya equilibre byaje bishimangira mu by’ukuri ya politiki isa naho yari inyuma y’ibintu bya ’73.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: N’ubwo wari muto: imyaka 17, wakomeje kwiga amashuri, urakura ukurikirana politiki zo mu Rwanda na n’ubu urabikurikirana; mu kiganiro cya mbere ni Kayibanda yari ananiwe, Kayibanda yarananijwe; ubibona gute, ukurikije uko byari bimeze icyo gihe?

Desire Habiyambere: Kunanirwa cyangwa kutananirwa kubemenya wenda ni bo bakoranaga.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Yapfuye afite imyaka 49 gusa?

Desire Habiyambere: Yeee. Wenda birashonoka ko yanananirwa ariko ndakeka ko atari cyo kibazo: ikibazo mu by’ukuri ni abantu bashakaga kwifatira ubutegetsi kandi barabufashe kuko nta kuntu byumvikana ko muri guverinoma yose –yego harimo koko abaminisitiri batandatu bakomoka i Gitarama- ariko abandi bose barimo bakomoka mu Majyaruguru coup d’etat imaze kuba bose basubiye mu myanya yabo. Niba Kayibanda yari ananiwe, ese uwari ushyizwe securite interieure, wari umaze imyaka nawe igera kuri cumi ari we chef d’Etat Major, ari unategeka n’igisirikare, ari na Minisitiri, abanyeshuri bagakora imvururu ntibazihagarike, eso niyo yaba ari Kayibanda waziteje, abo bashyizwe securite ko ari nabo nyuma bakoze na coup d’etat, bavuga bate ko batari bananiwe kandi batarabashije guhagarika izo mvururu?

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko bavuga ko bamuhannye, bakuraho ubutegetsi bwe?

Desire Habiyambere: Ariko rero icyo bari bashyizwe ntabwo ari ugusimbura ubutegetsi kwari uguhagarika izo mvururu, mbere na mbere, kandi ntabyo bakoze.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: None rero ibi byabereye mu Bubiligi, bariya si ukuvuga ngo ni abasore: ni abakomoka kuri bariya banyapolitiki bapfuye, babyibutse hashize imyaka 41 batari babona ubwo burenganzira barabwiha noneho kubera ko bari mu mahanga, barabikora ariko ibyo twavuze mu kiganiro, iki kiganiro ni icya gatatu narangije mbaza abaje mu kiganiro ko kuva u Rwanda rwabona ubwigenge ntiharabaho ihererekanya ry’ubutegetsi, umuperezida agahereza undi ubutegetsi mu mahoro keretse hametse amaraso. Ikibazo nakomeje kubaza nti: kugira ngo amaraso atazakomeza kumeneka, byagenda gute? Hakorwa iki?

 Desire Habiyambere: Kiriya gikorwa cyabaye cyo kwibuka bariya abantu bazize coup d’etat, nanjye ubwanjye nari mpari kubera ko ni ibintu bireba generation yanjye kandi muri abo bantu bagize ibyo bibazo bamwe ni abantu twaturanye kera, ndababona bakiri batoya bafite ako kababaro ariko batakavuga, badashobora no kukavugana n’inshuti zabo. Mu magambo bahavugiye, ubirebye basa nk’abasubiza icyo kibazo uko bo bakibona: bo bavuga yuko abantu batagomba gukomeza kuvangitiranya, bakitiranya ibintu. Barivugira ubwabo ko abantu babiciye bafite amazina. Ntabwo bishe batumwe n’abo bita abakiga, ntabwo abakiga muri rusange babahaye manda yo kujya kwica abantu kandi nabo bishe ni abo bantu. Ni ibyo tugomba kureba. Igisubizo rero kuri ibyo ngibyo: bo baravuga bati “Buri muntu azajye abazwa ibimureba. Ntihakagire umuntu witwaza akarere, ntihakagire umuntu witwaza ubwoko, ntihakagire umuntu witwaza idini.” Icyo ni kimwe. Icya kabiri kugira ngo mu gihugu cyacu hatazongera kuba ibintu bimena amaraso ni uko twasubiramo ibyabaye, tukabiganiraho, tukabyemeranyaho, tukagaragaza ukuri, nta matangamutima. Nitumenya histoire yacu, ibibi byayo, ibyiza –kuko nabyo bigomba kuba birimo- bizatuma umuntu twese dutera imbere, twavansa naho gukomeza kwihisha inyuma ya za interpretations z’amateka abantu bihimbira iyo bamaze gufata ubutegetsi bakareba ukuntu bagobeka ibintu bati “ kanaka, abantu bari baduhitanye, niyo mpamvu dufashe ubutegetsi, igihugu cyari mu rwobo”, abaturage batabigizemo uruhare, batanabisobanukiwe; ntabwo ibyo byazatuma tugira ho tugera. Ni nabyo bariya abasore bavuze bati “ukuri, ubutabera n’ubwiyunge”. Wenda ku byerekeye justice byo bisa nk’ibigoranye kuko abantu benshi basa naho batakiriho, habamo wenda uburyo bwo kubabaruirana ariko burya abantu bababarira icyaha ntabwo bababarira ahatari icyaha kugira ngo ibyo byo kuba abantu bagira icyo bageraho: byaba byiza ko bariya bantu bashyizwe mu majwi muri ibyo bintu bya ’73 bakiriho cyane cyane nimba bumva n’ibyo babavugaho ari ukubarenganya: bari bakwiye kuduha ibisobanuro aho kugira ngo bizajye gukomeza bisobanurwa n’abagiye babibona, babibonera kure ariko hari abandi babiboneraga mu mbere. Byari bikwiye: bariya bantu bashyizwe mu majwi muri biriya bintu bya ’73 bakiriho cyane cyane nimba bumva n’ibyo babavugaho ari ukubarenganya bari bakwiye kuduha ibisobanuro, babwire abantu uko ibintu byagenze, ukuri nyako.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ndagushimiye cyane Desire Habiyambere ku bitekerezo utanze mu Mvo n’Imvano! Undi wadusabye ijambo ni Docteur Leonard Nduwayo, uri mu Bufaransa. Docteur Nduwayo, uravuga ko muri ’73 abasirikare bahirika ubutegetsi bwa Kayibanda wari umunyeshuri muri Koleji i Nyamirambo, uravuga ko hari abana mwiganaga aho ngaho mu ishuri icyo gihe, bari bafite ababyeyi bari ku butegetsi bwa Kayibanda, barafatwa, barafungwa. Uratanga urugero rwa Gaspard Harerimana wari Minisitiri w’Ubuzima, uwo muminisitiri waguye mu Ruhengeri ariko umuryango we umara imyaka utazi ko yapfuye kera nyuma baza kubimenya mu buryo bubabaje. Babimenye gute Leonard?

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Babimenye hashize imyaka myinshi. Babimenye muri ‘78, uko babimenye rero muri ’78 ni uko uwari umuyobozi wa Kaminuza Nkuru y’u Rwanda, Dr Nsanzimana Sylvestre niwe wayoboraga kaminuza kuko njye nageze muri kaminuza y’u Rwanda muri ‘77 noneho Nsanzimana Habyarimana aza gushaka kumwohereza muri OUA kuba Umunyamabanga mukuru wungirije noneho mbere yuko agenga asaba Habyarimana, aramubwira ati “mbere yuko jya Addis Abebas, ndashaka kujya gusezera kuri muramu wanjye harerimana Gaspard!” Nuko nibwo Habyarimana amweruriye aramubwira ati “yarapfuye kandi yapfanye n’abandi bari abayobozi imbere ya coup d’etat”. Ubwo rero njye hari abo twiganaga, twiganye muri Saint Andre ariko tujyana n’i Butare muri Kaminuza, ubwo rero inkuru nibwo yaje kumenyekana muri ’78 nuko ab’inshuti zacu nyine bapfushije abantu babo nuko tujya kubayagira

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Nsanzimana Sylvestre yari umuyobozi wa Kaminuza ni ukuvaga ko yari umwe mu bategetsi bo hejuru b’u Rwanda ariko ikintu nk’icyo gikomeye n’ubwo yari umutegetsi ukomeye ntabwo yari abizi?

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Ntabwo yari abizi kandi muramu we Harerimana Gaspard we yari azi ko afunzwe mu Ruhengeri ariko ntabwo yari azi ko yapfuye kandi babishe muri ’76 ahubwo hari n’abapfuye mbere batigeze bagera muri prison nka Nzanana Fidele, Munyaneza wari Minisitiri w’ububanyi n’amahanga, bo ngo ntabwo bigeze bagere muri prison, bapfuye mbere y’igihe.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ku buryo iyo myaka yose byabaye ibanga, nta muntu wabikekaga na gato?

 Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Nta muntu wari ubizi rwose, ndakubwira neza rwose ko hari abana twiganaga ariko ntabwo bari bazi ko ba se bafunze ariko ntiba bazi ko bapfuye, guhera muri ’73 kugera muri ’78 nta kintu imiryango yabo yari izi.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ntibitanagje rero kubabona ejobundi bari hariya mu Bubiligi barira?

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Ntibitangaje kuko iriya yicwa rwose y’abanyepolitiki bo mu Majyepfo y’igihugu yari nka kanseri rwose muri Repubulika ya kabiri, mbese cyari ikintu nk’ikibyimba cyagombaga guturika umunsi umwe.Baributse, niko kanya bari babonye kuko mu gihugu ntibashobora kwibuka abantu babo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ni ikibazo kitoroshye. None hanyuma ukavuga uti ntabwo wemeranya n’abavuga ko kwibuka abarwanashyaka bishwe, ndavuga icyo gihe, bariya bo mu Majyepfo, Abanyenduga; wowe urakoresha ijambo inzirakarengane, aravuga uti: abavuga ko ari uguteranya Abahutu wowe ntabwo wemeranywa nabo?

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Ntabwo mbyemeza rwose nyine. None se ko bababajije kwibuka abantu babo, abenshi ntibazi naho babashyinguye, ntibazi nuko bapfuye kandi bariya banyepolitiki yego bakuweho nyine na coup d’etat hari inkundura muri Afurika muri kiriya gihe mu myaka ya za ’70 habaye za coup d’etat muri Afurika, mu bihugu byinshi ariko se bagombaba kwicwa, hari umuntu bishe? Ni yo mpamvu mvuka ko ari inziriakarengane, nta muntu bishe, babakuyeho kuko bari abanyapolitiki.

 Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Inzirakarengane, hari ikinyamakuru nasomaga hano cyasohotse muri rwa rubanza rwitiriwe urwa Lizinde na bagenzi be: bavuga ukuntu babicishaga inyota, bakabagaburira ibishyimbo n’ubugari, bagashyiramo umunyu mwinshi maze inyota ikabica, bikagera naho umuntu anywa inkari!

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Ibyo nibyo rwose, hari n’abantu bagiye babyandika. Mbese no muri prison yo mu Ruhengeri aho bari bafungiwe hari abantu basanze ku nkuta muri prison bari baranditseho ngo “twishwe n’inyota, twishwe n’inzara, ngo ‘turasha gupfa ariko urupfu ntirudushaka”. Urumva ko bari bafite agahinda, bavuga bati “nibura batwice birangire ariko be kutwikisha inzara”.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Muri iyi nyandiko yawe ukaba wamagana umuco mubi wise uwo kurenzaho: kutavugisha ukuri no kudahana. Uti “ingaruka zabyo warabibonye: zagaragaye igihe cy’amashyaka menshi. Wabisobanura aho ngaho?

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Erega biriya bintu rwose bya coup d’etat abantu bakuru baranabisobanura neza: byahereye muri ’68. 1968 habaye kongere ya MDR-PARMEHUTU i Gitarama noneho abantu cyane cyane abo mu Ruhengeri, ba Bicamumpaka, ba Auto Rusingizandekwe na ba Mpakaniye Lazaro, bo bahise bigendera, bavuga ngo “bazagaruka ari uko abanyamatiki b’abanyenduga babakuyeho”. Ibyo bintu rero byamunze politiki ya Repubulika ya mbere, hanyuma bigera muri ’70 abanyepolitiki bari batangiye no guterana amagambo. Hari abantu bitwaga ba Nshumbusho bateranaga amagambo na ba Majoro Gahimano, hari abakoraga muri nako ba Bizindori. Ibyo bintu rwose birazwi. Nyuma rero biza kugera muri coup d’etat ya ’73 ariko abo basivili bo mu Ruhengeri bavuye i Gitarama bagenda bavuga ngo “bazagaruka ari uko nyine abo banyanduga babakuyeho” nibo bafatanyije n’abasirikare babakuraho muri 1973 kandi Kayibanda we yari afitiye rwose mbese ikizere abantu bo mu Mjyaruguru y’igihugu: abakiga yari abafitiye rwose ikizere kuko yavugaga ko ari Abahutu ngo batavanze. Nicyo gituma yazamuye na ba Habyarimana na ba Birara Berchimas abaha Banque Nationale y’u Rwanda n’abantu benshi bari bamaze kugira amafaranga ari abo mu Majyaruguru y’u Rwanda.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: None iyo uvuga kurenzaho aha aba ushaka kuvuga iki?

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Kurenzaho ni uko babujije abantu kwibuka ababo. Wavuga ngo “kanaka baramwishe” bakaba bagufunga. Twajyaga tubiganira muri abo banyeshuri bandi twiganaga nyine iwabo bishwe ariko tukabivuga twihishe mu cyumba kugira ngo ba Maneko batatwumva. Kurenzaho rero ni uko nyine ibintu byose by’amarorerwa nka biriya kwica abantu, ababishe ntibamenyekane, ntibahanwe none bakavuga nk’ubu ngubu barimo kuvuga ngo biriya ni ugutanya Abahutu. Barashaka ko rero barenzaho kugira ngo abantu batibuka ababo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Byaragaragaye ko ingaruka zabyo nyuma y’imyaka 40 urabona abantu baracyibuka bakarira kandi biba byararangiye kera!

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Byaranagaragaye. Ibuka nyine amashyaka yongeye kuba menshi mu Rwanda muri ’91, abantu bakoze amashyaka ariko bamwe bashakaga kwihumura, bavuga bati “ingoma ya Habyarimana yatwiciye abantu, reka tuyikureho”. Ni nacyo gituma bamwe bakoranye n’Inkotanyi, bavuga bati “Inkotanyi zo zifite abasirikare, twe nta basirikare dufite, reka dufatanye n’Inkotanyi kugira ngo dukureho ubutegetsi bwa Habyarimana”. Ni ukubera rwose iyo kanseri y’abantu bishwe muri 1976

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Hanyuma rero hano ukavuga uti “abakamarade, abiyise abakamarade bamaze guhirika buriya butegetsi bwa Kayibanda, uti “hari abakiriho”, wowe uko ubyumva, uravuga uti “bari bakwiye gusaba imbabazi”

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Ntibyoroshye rwose bariho, sinavuga amazina ariko barazwi, ndumva bageze kuri bane cyangwa batanu bakiriho. Hari n’uwaciriye urubanza Kayibanda aracyariho. Njyewe icyo nakwifuza rwose ni uko, ubu bamaze gusaza, ntakuvuga ngo bazabacira urubanza cyangwa ngo bazabashyira mu munyururu ariko batubwire neza rwose ukuntu ibintu byagenze hanyuma abantu afite intimba ku mutima bayururutse.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ukubabanzwa n’ukuntu Kayibanda yafashwe n’abahiritse ubutegetsi, uti “Na radio Rwanda ntiyigeze ivuga urupfu rwe kandi uyu muperezida yategetse igihugu imyaka 11 uretse nuko yaharaniye ubwigenge bw’icyo gihugu ariko apfuye reka da! Nta kintu cyavuzwe!

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Twanabimenye nyuma kera, hari umuntu wo mu muryango w’iwacu nyine wari inshuti ye kugira ngo ajye gushyingura Kayibanda yagombye gusaba uruhushya muri Perezidansi. Urumva kugira ngo ujye gushyingura inshuti yawe ukagomba kujya gusaba imbabazi. Kayibanda rwose wenda yakoze amakosa muri politiki ntawe udakora amakosa, yari umuntu, ariko rero ukuntu bamuhambye nk’imfubyi na Radio Rwanda ntigire icyo ivuga rwose byababaje abantu, nanjye, byaratubabaje rwose, Kayibanda niwe wazanye demokarasi na Repubulika.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Igitangaje rero ni ukuntu nk’umuntu utazi ibyo ngibyo yagera ku kibuga i Kigali mu kibuga n’indege akavuga ati “aho ngaho ugeze ni kuri Gregoire Kayibanda International Airport”, usa nkaho hari icyubahiro bamuhaye kandi wumva ukuntu ibintu byamugendekeye?

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Kwitirira izina nyine ikibuga cy’indege i Kanombe mbese Habyarimana bamushyizeho igitugu arabyemera nyuma ahubwo hari izina ariko sinzi ukuntu wavivuga mu Kinyarwanda nka ‘portrait’ ya Kayibanda bagombaga kuyishyira harya hagati ya cya kimonima (monument) kiri i Kanombe ariko nyuma yabikoze aseta ibirenge. Ubu rero ntibakivuga yuko ko ari ikibuga cy’indege cyitiriwe Kayibanda.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ahubwo n’Inkotanyi zarabihinduye ubu ngubu bakita “Kigali International Airport”!

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Zarabihinduye ariko na Habyarimana we yakimwitiriye ari uguseta ibirenge nyine. Urumva ko nyine we yashakaga ko Kayibanda asa n’uwibagirana mu mateka y’u Rwanda kandi ntibishoboka. Kayibanda ntashobora kwibagirana mu mateka y’u Rwanda n’ibintu byiza yakoze, yakoreye igihugu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko iyo bamuvuga Kayibanda wumva bamuvuga ibintu bibi: ari Repubulika ya kabiri imuvuga nabi ndetse n’abubu ngubu iyo bamuvuga ntabwo bamuvuga neza?

Dr Leonard Nduwayo: Byo, bavuga ko ibyo byabaye muri revolusiyo (Revolution) muri ’59, muri ’60 no kurwana n’abiyitaga ngo Inyenzi ntabwo bamuvuga neza yego ni cyo gituma njyewe, nta politiki… nari mutoya. Kandi, no mu muryango wacu nta muntu wakoraga politiki ariko ndibuka jya muri Koleji muri ’71, abaminisitiri benshi bari abanyagitarama, na Minisitiri w’Uburenzi wacu nyine yari Harerimana Gaspard, yazaga no kudusura muri Koleji. Ni cyo gituma twari tumuzi, agakunda n’umupira. Yari afite n’ikipe yitwaga Demari, yari izi gukina cyane, yakundaga gukina na Kiyovu. Harerimana twari tumuzi cyane. Abaminisitiri benshi bari abanyagitarama bikarakaza n’abandi.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Iryo niryo kosa bamurega ko ubutegetsi bwinshi yabuhariye abo banyagitarama, abo banyenduga?

 Dr. Leonard Nduwayo: Ibyo cyakora ni byo, haje no kuba ikibazo guhera muri za ’70, abantu baterana amagambo bavuga ngo “abantu b’i Butare, Gikongoro na Gitarama ngo nibo bize, nibo bagomba gukora politiki”,  ngo naho abasirikare ngo “bagomba kuba abakiga. Ibyo bintu rero nyine byo kwirata no guterana amagambo byateye umwuka mubi muri politiki hanyuma bigera kuri iriya coup d’etat yo ’73.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka turangirize aho! Dogiteri Leonard Nduwayo, ndagushimiye ku bitekerezo utanze mu Mvo n’imvano!

 Dr. Leonard Nduwayo: Urakoze cyane Bwana Mugenzi!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Bakunzi b’ikiganiro Imvo n’Imvano ni aho  dusoreje Imvo n’Imvano y’uyu munsi, ndashimira abatwandikiye bose namwe mwese mwaduteze amatwi. Mwari kumwe na Ally Yusuf Mugenzi. Ni ah’ubutaha!

 

 

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