BBC ikomeje kwamamaza FDLR na RNC n’ikinyoma ku Rweru. Ikiganiro Imvo n’Imvano cyo ku wa 27/9/2014

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Ku itariki ya 27 Nzeri 1959, nibwo Joseph Habyarimana Gitera yatangaje bwa mbere icyiswe amategeko icumi (10) y’Abahutu. Amategeko arimo umuzi w’ingengabitekerezo ya jenoside yakorewe Abatutsi. Ku munsi wuzuza imyaka 55 izo nyigisho z’urwango zishyizwe ahagaragara i Ngoma ho mu karere ka Huye k’ubu, Radio BBC-Gahuzamiryango, yagejeje ku bantu bayumva ikiganiro Imvo n’Imvano gifitanye isano  n’ingengabitekerezo yashenye u Rwanda. Ni ikiganiro cyari kigizwe ahanini n’abantu bamamaza umutwe wa FDLR, ukaba ari umutwe ugendera ku bitekerezo byatangijwe n’abarimo Gitera.  Kanda aha ubisome

Ikiganiro ni uku cyagenze:

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Mwaramukanye amahoro bakunzi b’ikiganiro Imvo n’Imvano. Muri uku kwezi imitwe ya politiki nyarwanda hamwe n’imiryango nyarwanda itegamiye kuri leta irenga 30 kandi hafi ya yose ikorera mu mahanga yandikiye Akanama k’umuryango w’abibumbye gashyizwe umutekano, Umuryango w’ibihugu bw’uburayi n’umuryango w’ubuhahirane w’ibihugu byo mu Majyepfo y’Afurika SADC inyandiko ndende yise “Imibereho y’impunzi z’Abanyarwanda muri Repubulika Iharanira Demokarasi ya Kongo n’umutwe wa FDLR”. Iyo mitwe iravuga ko iyo nyandiko yari igamije kugaragaza ukuri ku bibazo byo mu Rwanda n’inzira yagarura amahoro arambye mu karere k’ibiyaga bigari muri rusange no ku mwihariko muri Repubulika Iharanira Demokarasi ya Kongo.

Muri iyo nyandiko y’impapuro icumi, iyo mitwe iravuga ko yifuza ko Uburasirazuba bwa Kongo butengamara, ikifuza ko impunzi zitahuka ku bushake ariko ikabona ko mu Rwanda hakiri imbogamizi zo gutahuka ku bushake. Iyo mitwe kandi iravuga ko FDLR ari umutwe w’abarwanyi bivanze n’abaturage ba Kongo ngo bityo ikabona ko gukemura ikibazo cya FDLR hakoreshejwe intwaro nk’uko bivugwa na bamwe mu bayobozi bizamena amaraso y’inzirakarengane. Iravuga ko gutahura izo mpunzi zirimo na FDLR ku ngufu bizaba ari ikosa rikomeye no guhohotera uburenghanzira bw’ikiremwamuntu.

Ni yo mpamvu ivuga ko ishyigikiye igitekerezo cy’umuryango wa SADC na Perezida wa Tanzaniya, Jakaya Kikwete; bifuza ko ibiganiro n’abatavuzaga rumwe na leta byaba hagati ya leta y’u Rwanda n’abatavuga rumwe n’u Rwanda bari hanze n’abari mu gihugu.

Iyo mitwe kandi iravuga ko ishyigikiye umugambi wa FDLR wo gutahuka mu mahoro ariko bataretse umugambi wabo wo gutahukana ishema. Ngo ibiganiro by’amahoro niyo nzira yonyine yo gukemura burundu ibibazo byo mu Rwanda.

Ibitekerezo bikubiye muri iyo nyandiko bitandukanye cyane n’ibyo u Rwanda ruvuga. U Rwanda rwakunze kuvuga ko FDLR ari umutwe w’iterabwoba, wasize ukoze jenoside mu Rwanda ariko u Rwanda nanone rukemera ko rwakwakira cyangwa rwakira abarwanyi ba FDLR bashyize intwaro hasi bakemera gutahuka. Kubera izo mpamvu, u Rwanda ruravuga ko rudashobora kujya mu biganiro n’uwo mutwe. None amaherezo ni ayahe? Abatumire bacu ni Gervais Condo, umwe mu bayobozi b’Ihuriro Nyarwanda RNC ari muri Amerika, ari kumwe na Pascal Kalinganire uri muri New Hampshire, muri Amerika, akaba ari mu muryango OPGER uharanira uburenganzira bw’ikiremwamuntu bombi bari mu mitwe cyangwa imiryango yashyize umukono kuri iyo nyandiko. Turi kumwe kandi na Sayinzoga Jean, umukuru wa komisiyo y’igihugu ishizwe gusezerera no gusubiza mu buzima busazwe abari mu gisirikare, we akaba ari kumwe na Gashugi Faustin Kunde wahoze ari muri FDLR akaba yaratahutse. Ikiganiro mwagiteguriwe na Ally Yusuf Mugenzi.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kalinganire, ni wowe washyize umukono kuri iyi nyandiko, iriho amazina y’amashyiramwe cyangwa imiryango irenga 30 ariko isinya iriho kuri urwo rwandiko mwatanze ni iyawe gusa, byagenze gute ngo abandi ntibashyireho umukono?

Pascal Kalinganire: Eee, reka mbanze mbashimire Bwana Ally Yusuf Mugenzi kandi nsuhuze bagenzi banjye mbereye ku bari mu Rwanda: Bwana Sayinzoga na Gashugi na Condo uri hano muri Etats Unis turi kumwe. Mukomere! Ndabasuhuje! Mugenzi, umaze gusobanura neza ibikubiye muri iyo nyandiko yacu. Iyi miryango ubona kuri iyo lisite y’amashyirahamwe ya politiki n’amashyirahamwe aharanira imibereho myiza y’abaturage (societes civiles) ni imiryango y’Abanyarwanda yari muri Diaspora, twatangiranye ku kibazo cy’impunzi, ibyo bise ngo clause de cessation. Donc gucura impunzi z’Abanyarwanda zibarirwa kuva muri 1959 kugeza muri 1998. Twatangiye gukorera hamwe kuva mu mwaka w’2011 kugeza na n’ubu tugikomeza gukora kuri iki kibazo cyo gushaka gucura izo mpunzi.

Gusa rero kuvuga ngo ko hariho signature y’umuntu umwe, urabona imiryango irenga 30 kugira ngo buri muntu asinye ku ibaruwa, asinya ku ibaruwa ikugarukire, aho twahisemo kugira ngo umuntu umwe asinye, aba ari we unatanga na addresse de reponse bazasubizaho cyangwa se contacts. Ni uko twabigenje.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Mugenzi wanjye dukorana hano arambaza ati “uzi neza ko aba bantu koko iyi nyandiko bateguye bayigejeje kubo yari igenewe?”

Pascal Kalinganire: Dukoresha uburyo nibura butatu: kohereza mu iposa, kohereza dukoresheje email noneho aho dufite abantu bakazijyanira mu ntoki. Ni uko twabigenje.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kuri mugenzi wawe Bwana Condo muri kumwe, RNC iri mu mitwe yashyize umukono kuri iyo nyandiko ariko uretse kuyishyiraho umukono wowe wabwiye ko wagize n’uruhare rwo kuyitegura, murashaka kugera kuki Bwana Condo?

Gervais Condo: N’ubwo mfite Ihuririro mbarizwamo, iyi komite yateguye iyi nyandiko nayijyiyemo ngira ngo kubera ubunararibonye cyangwa se kuba ndi impuguke mu byerekeye “humanitarian Action” ari byo navuga gutabariza impabe n’indushyi cyangwa se no kuzirengera, iyo nama yari amaze kuvuga Kalinganire yabereye i Buruseli mu mwaka ushize mu kwezi kwa Kane ku itariki ya 19 kugeza ku ya 20. Ikaba yari ifite ikipe y’abayiteguye kugira ngo nanone bagaragarize isi ko ibintu byo gushyira mu bikorwa icyiswe ‘cessation clause’ cyangwa ‘clause de cessation’ byaba ari ukwihuta cyane cyane ko leta y’u Rwanda yari yarabishyizemo ingufu ivuga iti “nyamuneka nimukore ibishoboka tuvuge ko ikibazo cy’impunzi kirangiye”.

Inama imaze guteranira i Buruseli, umwe mu myanzuro yafashe, yasabye abo bari bateguye iyo nama, nari ndimo, ko noneho ako gakipe kayiteguye, kakurikiranira hafi ibibazo by’impunzi cyane cyane mu gushyira mu bikorwa ibyo bya “cessation clause”, tukareba niba koko nta mpunzi zizahutazwa. Twabikurikiranye rero kuva icyo gihe umunsi ku munsi: tukamenya ibihugu byose birimo impunzi uko byifashe, tukamenya ahari imbogamizi, biza kugera kuri ibi ngibi bibaye muri Kongo ari aka kanama kabikurikira. Ni ako kateguye iyo nyandiko mu izina ry’iyo miryango ya politiki n’idaharanira inyungu yari yagashyizeho ngo kajye gakora mu izina ryayo.Ni gutyo najamo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Nari nkubajije rero icyo mugamije kugeraho nyuma y’iyi nyandiko mwasohoye muri uku kwezi, mugamije kugera kuki?

Gervais Condo: Icya mbere ngira ngo Kalinganire yari yabivuze mu magambo make. Nawe wari wabivuze: tugamije gutabariza ziriya mpunzi ziri muri Kongo. Ziriya mpunzi ziri muri Kongo zihabaye imyaka ijya kugera kuri 20 abantu barazirengagije kuva zatangira kugeza mugingo aya ndetse n’uwo muryango wa HCR wazitereranye kuva zatangira guhunga muri ariya mashyamba ya Kongo ukaba wari umaze iminsi uvuga ko impunzi z’Abanyarwanda zikwiriya ku isi ari hafi ibihumbi 100. Hagati aho baza gukora ibarura bafatanyije na leta ya Kongo basanga ababashije gusohoka mu ngo zabo no gupfunuka mu mashyamba ngo baze kwiyandikisha bageze ku bihumbi za 245. Urumva harenzeho inshuro 150% y’impunzi muri Kongo ugereranyije n’imibare bajyaga batanga.

Nk’uko nanone wabivuze ugitangira, bamaze kuvuga ibyo kujya kurasa ku mutwe wa FDLR nawo ukomoka muri izo mpunzi, tukavuga tuti “nanone ishyano rirabaye” kuko ntakubeshye iteka iyo bavuze kongera kumena amaraso y’Abanyarwanda haba mu Rwanda haba muri Kongo, ndi mu bantu basuherwa. Bariya bantu bavangavanze n’impunzi kandi muri abo bategetsi bavuga ibyo byo kujya kuzirasaho, bakavuga ko n’ubundi nta gatege bafite ka gisirikare kuko bagaragaza ko izo ngabo za FDLR zigomba kuba zigeze ku 1.500, ubwo babivugaga batari bashyiramo abagera kuri 200 batanze intwaro ku bwende bwabo, bivuge ko hasigayemo nk’1300 ukurikije iyo mibare uwo muryango mpuzamahanga utanga. Noneho wafata 1,300 cy’abasirikare ba FDR ukakigereranya n’ibihumbi 245 by’ababashije kuva mu mashyamba, ndavuga ababashyije kuva mu mashyamba bajya kwiyandikisha kuko dutekereza ko uwo mubare urarenze cyane. Tukavuga tuti “baravangavanze, nibajya kuvuga ngo bararasa kuri bariya bantu bo muri FDLR nanone bararikoze” Mbese izo mpunzi ugereranyije na FDLR ni umusirikare umwe ku bantu 200. Urumva rero uvuze uti “nshire mu bikorwa icyemezo cyo kujya kurasa FDLR aho ivangavanze aho ngaho n’abaturage ndavuga ab’impunzi, zivangavanze n’Abanyekongo: kazaba kabaye. Ishyano rizaba riguye. Abantu nanone bashyira. Turasaba rero uwo muryango w’Abibumbye, mu byo dusaba n’icyo tugamije: ni ukubabwira tuti “Nyamuneka mwari musazwe barashyizeho gahunda yo kugira ngo barambike imbunda kugeza ubu ngubu nta maraso yongeye kumeneka gahunda itangiye, kuki abantu aho kugira ngo bakoreshe ingufu za gisirikare batakwitabira inzira y’amahoro, itamena andi maraso ahubwo ndetse nk’uko uwo muryango mpuzamahanga wakomeje kugira isoni zo kuba ntacyo wakoze kugira ngo jenoside yabaye mu Rwanda muri 1994 yo kubaho cyangwa se banayihagarike vuba na bwangu, iyo bayivuze iteka bagira ipfunwe, bigatuma batanga inkunga igaragara kuri leta y’u Rwanda, kuki batagira isoni zo kuba barirengagije abo bantu kugeza magingo aya kandi batari babiyobewe, nta gihe batavuze ko hari impunzi zitabarika, uhereye n’igihe nk’umugore witwa Emma Bonino yigera kujyayo mu ntangiriro ya za 1997 akaza asohoka avuga ati “Ndasa n’uvuye mu muriro utazima. Hariya hantu mpasanze impunzi zirenga ibihumbi 200”. Dore none babone ibihumbi 200 hafi na 50.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Condo wari uvuze ko izi mpunzi zavuye mu mashyamba, zari zihishe mu mashyamba, ntabwo zari zizwi, ntabwo wavuga ko umuryango w’Abibumbye wirengaje izo mpunzi, kuki wakwita ku zindi mpunzi ntiwite ku mpunzi zo muri Kongo?

Gervais Condo: Babigize ku bintu by’ubushake

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ubushake?

Gervais Condo: Yee, byakozwe ku bushake, ari strategie bashyizeho d’abord y’uwo muryango w’Abibumbye ufatanyije na leta y’u Rwanda yakomeje kubotsa igitutu, bavuga bati “nimuhagarike imfashanyo y’abo bantu, niyo ibashuka. Nimuhagarika imfashanyo mukayizana mu Rwanda ni nko kuzabakurura bazasohoka, baze bajya gushaka ibiryo mu Rwanda.”

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ba uretse gato: icyo kintu kirakomeye, turakibaza Sayinzoga. Leta y’u Rwanda yagambanye n’amahanga kugira ngo bahagarike imfashanyo kuri izo mpunzi? Nibyo uvuga?

Gervais Condo: Ni byo mvuze cyane, ndaza mbisubiremo mbabwire ko kugeza n’ubu ngubu ziriya mpunzi urumva umubare bari barawugabanyije bavuga ngo “impunzi zose z’Abanyarwanda zigeze ku bihumbi 100” bakirengagiza ko hari ibyo bihumbi birenze 245. Nta mfashanyo abana b’izo mpunzi mvumva ngo bari kumwe na FDLR iyo birukanka iyo ngiyo: nta kaye, nta karamu, nta mwambaro, nta biryo. Nta kwirengagizwe rero kurenze aho ngaho kandi bitavuga yuko batabimenye.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko si ugushinyagura: ntacyo zibaye! Niba zarabayeho iyo myaka 20 zikaba zikiriho, zidafashijwe, ntabwo ari ugushinyagura, ntacyo zibaye!

Gervais Condo: Zirakibaye Bwana Mugenzi, zibayeho nabi, zifite kugenda zibundabunda, niho nkwubwira ko ahubwo si n’impunzi gusa: ni imponoke z’amasasu y’ingabo z’u Rwanda, ni imponoke z’abantu baturutse za Kibeho, bahonotse aho za Shabunda, za Kisangani, za Mbandaka, za Tingi Tingi, zahonotse amasasu za Umoja wetu, zahonotse amasasu ya za Kimya, zahonotse amasasu ya Amani Leo zihora zibundabanda zihishe muri ibyo bihuru rimwe na rimwe nyine zirinzwe n’abo bantu bakubwiraga bo muri FDLR.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Bwana Condo, uri kumwe na Sayinzoga. Sayinzoga ari kumwe n’umuntu wari muri FDLR, Bwana Sayinzoga uteze amatwi abo bagabo babiri icyo bashaka n’ukuntu basobanura ikibazo cy’impunzi n’impamvu banditse iyi nyandiko. Nawe nayiguhaye mbere y’ikiganiro, urabivugaho iki Bwana Sayinzoga?

Sayinzoga Jean: Ahubwo warakoze kuyimpa, ndagushimira kandi yose narayisomye. Ibyo gutaha kw’Abanyarwanda: turabyifuza ni ukuri. Nta n’ubwo twifuza ko Abanyarwanda baza badafite ishema n’inabyo turwanira kugira ngo batahuke bafite ishema. Iby’imibare byo biriya bihumbi 200, namubwira ko iriya mibare ari Abanyekongo ubwabo bayiduhaye, iyo nama nari nyirimo ya tripartite. Yabaye hagati y’abahagarariye guverinoma ya Kongo, HCR natwe. Iyo nama nari nyirimo. Ubundi muri Kongo bajyaga baduha imibare ko impunzi z’Abanyarwanda ziri muri Kongo ari ibihumbi 80, ejobundi batubwira ko ari ibihumbi 245 ahubwo bavugaga ibihumbi 250. Aho byavaga ni aha ngaha: Ubwa mbere kwari ugukekeranya. Bakavuga bati “turakeka ko impunzi z’Abanyarwanda ziri muri Kongo, tumaze kubona abatahutse, abasigaye ari ibihumbi 80.” Kugira ngo bihinduke ni uko ubuyobozi bwa Kongo ubwabwo bwaratubwiye buti “twakoze ibintu bya gihanga noneho, twaturutse hasi tubwira za localites na za groupements buri muntu wese akatubwira Abanyarwanda batuye ahantu ategeka. Ati “hanyuma tugenda duteranya, ibihumbi 250 niyo twagezeho ubu ngubu”. Urumva ko iyo mibare yavuye muri Kongo. Ntabwoa ri ahandi yavuze. Ntabwo bayihimbye ariko ibyo ari byo byose niyo byaba ari ibihumbi 500 twebwe u Rwanda twiteguye kubakira. Dufite ibyangombwa bihagije. Twiteguye bihagije, ntabwo bashobora kubura aho bajya. Imitahire noneho rero: ndakubwiza ukuri Bwana Mugenzi, nanjye nagiye gusura inkambi z’impunzi z’Abanyarwanda: nagiye Kitele, nagiye Maheba muri Zimbabwe. Ingendo za nyuma zajyanaga n’iyo ‘clause de cessation’, tukababwira tuti “ubu ngubu kuba dufite impunzi kuva muri ’59, ku isi yose ubu ngubu impunzi zimaze imyaka myinshi hanze hari Abapalestiens bahunze kuva muri 1947 cyangwa 1948, abakurikiraho ni Abanyarwanda, ko Abapalestiens bafite ikibazo cyabo cyihariye, nk’Abanyarwanda twebwe umuntu akomeza kuba impunzi bigenze bite? Ko dushishikariza abantu bose gutaha? Iby’uwo mugabo avuga ko ngo “bashushubikanya abantu, bakabahatira gutaha” nabyo ntabwo ari byo kuko iyo ‘clause de cessation’ ntabwo ari u Rwanda rugenda rukabwira igihugu ngo “nimwirukane Abanyarwanda”: oya. Rurababwira ruti “mwebwe nimufasha Abanyarwanda bacu kubona uko babaho. Niba uwo munyarwanda ari mu gihugu cyanyu, akaba afite ibintu akora bibafitiye akamaro nawe bimufitiye akamaro, mukaba mwiteguye kumuha ubwenegihugu, nimubumuhe! Niba uwo munyarwanda ashaka gutaha mu gihugu turamuha rwa rwandiko rw’inzira: passport, ajye ajyenderaho noneho ajya aza akore ibikorwa bye, ajye aza no mu Rwanda akomeze ubwenegihugu bwe bw’ubunyarwanda. Ushaka gutaha ubu ngubu, akaza mu Rwanda agasubira mu Rwanda rwe, akajya ashobora gusohoka igihe ashakiye, nabyo birashoboka. Buri gihugu noneho kikajya kitubwira kiti “twebwe nimwihangane, tube tubanza twitegure!” Kongo Demokaratike niko yatubwiye, ngira ngo basabye umwaka. Kango Brazzaville nayo yari yasabye igihe, Zambiya yasabye igihe. Ibyo bihugu byose twagiye tuvugana byose niko byagiye bigenda. Nta munyarwanda rero u Rwanda rwifuza gushushubikanya ngo atahe igitaraganya, shishi itabona, agomba gutaha ameze neza, yiteguye, akaza agasubira mu gihugu cye.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Uku kugambana Condo avuze mwagambaniye impunzi kugira ngo zitabona imfashanyo, zibone ko zibabara, mugambana n’amahanga, ni ikirego gikomeye?

Sayinzoga Jean: Ntabwo bishoboka kuko ntabwo dutegeka HCR. Ni umuryango wigenga, ufite amahame yawo, sinzi ko banabyemera ubwabo ko hari igihugu cyabashyiraho igitugu. ntabwo bishoboka. Ntaza no kubyibagirwa mbe Bwana Mugenzi, ntaza kubyibarwa, ndakubwira koibyo bihugu byose mbijyamo, ikintu kimbabaza ni ukubona umunyarwanda atakaza agaciro kuko ari impunzi ku buryo rero ntabwo u Rwanda rwakwifuza ko Umunyarwanda ajya gusonzera mu mahanga, abamuhaga imfashanyo bazihagaritse, ntabwo bishoboka. Twifuza ko yabaho neza nawe akazagira igihe azatahira.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kalinganire, wumvise ibivugwa na Sayinzoga; we aravuga ko barashishikariza impunzi gutaha ku bushake, bagashishikariza ibihugu bishoboye kubakira bakabakira ariko aravuga ko imiryango irafunguye kandi bakoze ibishoboka byose ngo impunzi zitahuke. Ibyo avuga bitandukanye n’ibiri mu nyandiko yanyu kuko mwebwe muravuga ko hakiri imbogamizi z’impunzi gutahuka ku bushake, Kalinganire!

Pascal Kalinganire: Ni byo koko ibyo tuvuga ko hari imbogamizi ariko reka mbanze mvuge ku byerekeye iryo jambo bavugaga ryo kugambanira impunzi ngo zitahuke ku ngufu, ibyo bintu ni ibintu byatangiye kera kuva muri mu mwaka w’2005, guverinoma y’u Rwanda yotsa igitutu HCR, ko izo mpunzi zagomye gutahuka birazamuka kugeza igihe HCR nayo yavuze iti “koko wa mugani ko dufite n’impunzi nyinshi z’Abanyarwanda, kuki zitatahuka?” Batangira noneho kumva, batangira no gushyira mu bikorwa ibyo bintu, ariho havuye “clause de cessation” mu mwaka w’2011.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Cumi na rimwe, tubwire 2005 wavugaga yuko aribwo byatangiye kugambana, byagenze bite?

Pascal Kalinganire: Byonyine mu madisikuru y’igihugu mwagiye mwumva na Perezida ubwe avuga ati “izo mpunzi nizitahe, zive hanze ntacyo zishakayo”. Ubwo rero byakomeje babwira HCR ko izo mpunzi zigomba gutahuka kandi koko ni mu gihe mutekereje namwe igihugu gifite impunzi zingana kuriya hanze kugira ngo kivuge ngo ‘gifite amahoro’ murabyumva. Ni uko za references ubu ntazifite nshatse naziboherereza ariko rero ni ibintu byatangiye mu mwaka w’2005.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: None ikibazo nari nkubajije rero!

Pascal Kalinganire: Bon, kuri icyo kibazo, twe turavuga ko ibyangombwa bituzuye mu gihugu kugira ngo impunzi zitahuke. Nk’uko mwabibonye muri iriya memerandum; d’abord reka duhere ku kibazo cy’umutekano; ntagiye kure reka tubanze duhere ejobundi ibintu byabaye mu kwezi kwa Karindwi mu gihugu: Minisitiri ubwe w’umutekano ngira ngo donc wa administration locale yatangaje ko abantu bagera ku bihumbi 16 mu karere ka Ngororero babuze, ibyo birapasa gutya inapercu, nta muntu rwose uvuze ati “abantu twababonye aha ngaha, aba bantu babuze batya”.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ba uretse gato! Ba uretse gato Kalinganire! Sayinzoga ufite ikaramu…

Pascal Kalinganire: Ntabwo ndangije. Hari abandi ibihumbi 30 noneho…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ba uretse gato, ba uretse, icyo nshaka kuvuga: Sayinzoga ufite ikaramu uze gusubiza kuri uwo mubare Kalinganire avuze w’ibihumbi 16. Ngaho komeza Kalinganire!

Pascal Kalinganire: Donc, nanone inzego zishyizwe za gereza zitangaza ko nanone ibihumbi 30 by’imfungwa z’Abanyarwanda nazo babuze ejobundi rwose mu kwezi kwa Karindwi n’ukwa Munani ndimo ndavuga. Ntabwo nagiye mu bya kera. Ibya kera byo ni agahomamunwa! Bon! Uwo niwo mutekano rero ubwo baravuga ko uhari mu Rwanda. Ejobundi mwimvise imirambo igera kuri 40 Abarundi barobye mu kiyaga cya Rweru, iyo mirambo yaturukagaga mu Kanyaruru, mu mugezi uturuka mu Rwanda.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko naho naguca mu ijambo, ntabwo baremeza ko iyo mirambo yaturutse mu Rwanda, iperereza ntabwo rirakorwa, gutunda gatoki, ukemeza ko ari u Rwanda nabyo waba uhubutse, Kalinganire!

Pascal Kalinganire: None se ibihumbi 30 byabuze maze kuvuga mu mwanya mwigeze mubona raporo cyangwa se ngo hari ubushakashatsi bwemeje ko bavuye mu Rwanda? Ibihumbi 16, hari raporo yigeze ivuga ko abo bantu barigise gutya, hari ubushakashatsi mwigeze mwumva buvugwa kuri abo bantu. Ntabwo iki ngiki ari ubwa mbere. Ntamutse ntanze izindi preuves zanjye: ni uko muri 2009 uriya mugezi wa Kanyaru nanone Abanyarwanda barerembaga hejuru y’amazi, ibyo byatangajwe n’Abarundi, byavuzwe ku maradiyo. Impunzi zari zimaze kwirukanwa mu Burundi, zigeze mu Rwanda nyuma y’ibyumweru bibiri, bagaruka biruka na none abantu bagera kuri 300, bavuga bati “twebwe baraza bakaturobamo abantu nijoro, bakabajyana bakabica” kandi koko imirambo noneho ikaba yaratangajwe n’ubutegetsi bw’i Burundi, bavuga bati “imirambo twarayibonye.” Ubwo ni mu myaka itanu ishize. Ejobundi habonetse indi mirambo 40, iyo ngiyo niba batarayikuyemo iperereza, iyo ngiyo noneho byaragaragaye ko yari Abanyarwanda. Mu by’ukuri, umutekano ushaka kuvuga ni uwuhe?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko ibyo ni ibyo uvuga, ni ibyo uvuga, Kalinganire na polisi muri iki cyumweru yarabihakanye, iravuga ko bakeneye iperereza, polisi y’u Rwanda?

Pascal Kalinganire: Icyo nshaka kuvuga ni uko iryo perereza ritazabaho. None se ibihumbi 16 birabura kandi bitangajwe noneho n’u Rwanda, ntihagire ukubwira irengero ryayo. Ibihumbi 30 bikabura, ntahagire ukubwira irengero ryayo, ubwo se urumva iyo mirambo 40 yo ni nde uzakubwira irengero ryayo? Hari ibijyendana rero noneho n’ubwisanzure mu gihugu: itangazamakuru mu gihugu, ntarihari. Abanyamakuru birirwa bafungwa murabizi. Ibyerekeye politiki: nta bwisanzure bwa politiki. Opposition hariya ntabwo navuga ngo irakora. Mwabonye ibyabaye kuri Ingabire, mwabonye ibyabaye kuri ba Mushayidi, bariya bapoliticiens baba muri opposition bose. Amagambo y’abapoliticuiens ubwayo nayo noneho n’abategetsi b’igihugu agenda yereka impunzi ko zitagombye no gutaha. Ijambo rya Perezida ubwe wa Repubulika yavugiye i Bwisige, iryo yavugiye ejobundi muri Nyabihu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Yavuze iki? Yavuze iki?

Pascal Kalinganire: Iryo muri Nyabihu cyangwa?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Aho ushaka, tanga urugero, ni wowe ubihisemo!

Pascal Kalinganire: Nk’iby’ejobundi muri Nyabihu aho yavugaga ati “abantu badutera tuzabarasa ku manywa y’ihangu, izuba riva kandi …..

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Abo ni abatera ntabwo ari impunzi?

Pascal Kalinganire: nyuma y’aho gatoya nibwo dutangiye kubona abantu ba badisparus ibihumbi 16 birabuze, ibihumbi 30 birabuze ku buryo twebwe dushobora no kuyakonegita no kuri ayo magambo yavuzwe ku mugaragaro kandi mwese mwiyumviye.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Sayinzoga, nari nkwubwiye nti ‘fata ikaramu’ ibi bihumbi 16, ibi bihumbi 30 n’aya magambo, bo ntabwo bemera ko ibi uvuga byo gushishikariza impunzi gutahuka ku busahake, baravuga ko hakiri imbogamizi, urabyumvise Sayinzoga!

Sayinzoga Jean: Ntabwo dukeneye Abanyarwanda bo kwica n’igihano cyo kwica cyavuyeho uretse nabo kuvuga ko hari abo bahohotera. Iyi mibare yavugaga ngo y’umutekano ngo mu 2014  bavuze yuko ngo hari ibihumbi 16 ngo byaburiye muri Ngororero, none se ubwo haba hasigaye abaturage bangahe hagiye ibihumbi 16? Iyi mibare yo nta n’ubwo nyizi. Naho ibihumbi 30 byo ni inzego z’imfungwa n’abagororwa kandi iyi ni imibare kuva TIG yajyaho n’abandi kandi ikibitera nabyo ni ukubera ko iyo aba ngaba bakora TIG, basaba impushya bakajya iwabo, iyo atagarutse nta n’ubwo bavuga ngo aba yaragiye hanze, haba n’ubwo yimuka akajya ahandi cyangwa ari aho ngaho bakora indi mirimo. Umuntu ntabwo aba yarapfuye, aba ahari kuko bigera naho ngaho bakamugarura. Ibi ngibi urabona ni imibare y’igihe kirekire, ntabwo ari iby’ejobundi, ni ukuva igihe TIG igiriyeho.

 

Ubagiriye neza kuko wavuze biriya bya Rweru: Rweru haracyari iperereza ni ejobundi. Abayobozi b’u Rwanda bavuga bati “biri i Burundi, i Burundi nibakenera ko dukorana tuzakora ukuri kugaragare” ariko ubu nta cyemezo kirafatwa.

Naho ibi ngibi by’imirambo y’Akanyaru ya 2009, icyo gihe hari hakiri ibihuha byinshi, umuntu wese yaravugaga ngo bamwishe. Byamaze igihe kinini, ibihuha ntaho bitaba, nk’abantu bari mu buroko n’abantu bari mu nkambi z’impunzi barakubwira bati “tudashyizeho ibihuha, ntabwo twabaho!” Naho iperereza avuga ngo ntabwo rizabaho: rizabaho. Nta gihe iperereza ritabaho. Ubwisanzure mu gihugu rero, Mungu wanjye! Ese yasomye ko n’ejobundi hari ibyo abanyamakuru bavuze ku munsi w’itangazamakuru, akareba ibyo Abanyarwanda bavuga. Wenda icyo ashaka ni itangazamakuru ritukana, iryo nta gihugu kiryemera.

Naho iby’abayobozi, ibya opposition bya Ingabire na Mushayidi: ngira ngo babisobanuye bihagihegije, ibyinshi ntabwo ndi umucamanza. Ibyo ngibyo azabaze abacamanza, muzamusobanurira impamvu kandi barabivuze. Ibyo mbigiyemo rwose byaba ari ukwivanga. Nanjye naba ntambikiriye.

Naho ibyerekeye  rero ibyo avuga Perezida yavuze, ibya Bwisige cyangwa ibya Nyabihu. Ibya Nyabihu reka musobanurire: yewe n’ejobundi Perezida Obama yavugaga yuko ibintu byerekeye umutekano Abanyamerika batabyihanganira. Sarkozy ejo muri campagne yakoze mu Majyarugu y’Ubufaransa yarabwiraga ati “ikintu cyerekeye umutekano w’Ubufaransa, Abafaransa twese tugomba gushyira hamwe tukabungabunga umutekano wacu”. Natwe, urumva izo ni ingero nguhaye zo hanze, mu gihugu kuki twakwemera ko abantu baza bakica Abanyarwanda babatera za gerenade cyangwa banabarasa cyangwa banabaniga, tugaceceka ngo batazagira icyo bavuga? Perezida yabivuze kubera yuko byari bikabije, abo bantu nyine bazaga gutera za gerenade aha ngaha abenshi barafashwe, barerekanwe, baracyari mu butabera. None se bakora ibyo tukabihorera kugira ngo ushaka gutaha atabona ko hari umuntu wafunzwe? Igihugu kidafunga abakoze ibyaha, wakibona hehe? Nashaka ndi kumwe na Bwanda Kunde nushaka ko anyongerera kuri ibi ngibi, hari byinshi…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Oya. Ndamuhamagara mu kanya, ndamuhamagara mu kanya maze kubaza Condo, niba urangije. Kunde, ihangane gato! Reka mbanze mvugane na Condo kuko icyo ndibukubaze gifitanye isano n’ibyo Condo agiye kuvuga. Bwana Condo, muravuga ko FDLR ari umutwe uvanze n’impunzi, ukavuga ko uvanze n’Abanyekongo, gukoresha ingufu za gisirikare bizamena amaraso y’inzirakarengane ariko mukongeraho ko mushyigikiye ko FDLR itaha nk’uko yakunze kubivuga, itahana ishema. Iyo muvuga ishema, mushaka kuvuga iki?

Gervais Condo: Ariko unyemereye nari nasabye ijambo kugira ngo nkore reactions ebyiri kuri biriya bintu, iriya mibare bamaze kuvuga. Icya mbere, hariho uriya mubare w’ibihumbi 16 watangajwe na Minisitiri w’Umutekano, avuga abanyururu bamaze kubura.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Abo ni abanyururu bo muri TIG, sibyo?

Gervais Condo: Abanyururu bonyine ubwabo, noneho hakaza na biriya bihumbi …

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ntabwo ari muri TIG? Ba uretse gato!

Gervais Condo: 30 nibo ba TIG, 16 ni abanyururu

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ba uretse gato Condo! Twumvikane gato! Ndaguha ijambo. Sayinzoga, urabyumva 16 ibyo ngibyo!

Sayinzoga Jean: Ibihumbi 30 ni abari muri TIG batorotse, ntabwo ari abanyururu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Cumi na bitandatu?

Gervais Condo: Abanyururu.

Sayinzoga Jean: Cumi na bitandatu ni imibare yabashyizeho itari nayo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ni ibihimbano?

Sayinzoga Jean: Ntabwo wabashyira hamwe. None se abantu batorotse ari ibihumbi 16 bava mu karere ka Ngororero, urumva bishoboka wowe?

Gervais Condo: Reka nsubiremo: ibyo ni ibyo Minisitiri w’Umutekano yatangaje ari i Ngororero ku itariki ya 02/06/2013. Ntabwo ariho baturutse honyine. Ndavuga imibare y’abanyururu babuze.

Sayinzoga Jean: Ariko umubare niyo waba ari uwo nguwo, hashyize imyaka myinshi yaragiye ateranya, nabyo nta gitangaza kirimo. Ni ukuvuga yuko ubuyobozi bwacu ntabwo bufunga umunyarwanda ngo birirwe bamuziritseho amapingu ku maguru no ku maboko. Barasohoka bajya gukora hanze, barasohoka bakajya hanze, aho yatangiriye n’aho yasoreje iyo myaka ntabwo nyifite mu mutwe ariko umenye ko niba ari Abanyarwanda bahunze bakaba abari mu gihugu cyangwa baragiye hanze, ikibi ni uko wavuze ngo “twarabishe ibyo bihumbi 16 bose twagiye tubavana mu munyururu tukibica” naho gutoroka byo birasazwe naho gutoroka byo birasazwe, aho badatoroka, no mu bihubu byose ntuzi n’ahantu hakomeye, ntuzi ko bajya batoroka?

Gervais Condo: Abivuze neza rwose Sayinzoga, iyo mibare niyo. Njyewe nabonye ibihumbi 45 ni abaturage ba zimwe mu makomine zari zituwe cyane mu Rwanda ndavuga muri iyo myaka ya za ’90 na ’95. Iyo baburiye rimwe rero haba hari ikibazo nk’uko Kalinganire yabivugaga abantu bagombye gukora enquete, ibyo ntibyabayeho. Nkagaruka ku kintu na none yari yavuze Sayinzoga kijyanye na bairiya byo gushyira mu bikorwa “clause de cessation”, ni byo koko ‘clause de cessation’ yateganyaga options zigeze nko kuri eshanu: hari ugutahuka bushake, hari ibintu byo kuba basonerwa bakagumana ubuhungiro, hari ibintu byo kuba bakwemera gutura muri icyo gihugu bakagira uburenganzira bwo kuba bakomeza kuba Abanyarwanda bakagira izo za passport, hari ibintu byo kuba babona ubwenegihugu aho ngaho bari cyangwa se no kuba babimurira mu kindi gihugu. Kuri ibyo bintu byo kugira ngo bashake za passport, igihugu cyari très avancé mu gushyira mu bikorwa iyo ‘clause de cessation’ ni igihugu cya Zambia, HCR yari yarafasheho icyitegererezo, muri uko kuyifataho icyitegererezo, i Kigali baravuze bati, sinzi wenda na Sayinzoga wenda yari ariyo muri abo bayobozi kuko ntabwo nigeze menya amazina y’abo bayobozi bagiye gushishikariza izo mpunzi gutaha, ngo babahe na za passport ubanza ndetse baragiye bazitwaje ariko ibibazo babahaye bikabatera kwibaza, babazaga bene wabo bari mu Rwanda, abantu barakenga kandi ni mu gihe n’iwacu baravuga bati “inyamaswa idakenga yishwe n’umututizi”.

Ikindi rero mu bintu twari twabonye muri iyo nama Kalinganire yabivuze mu magambo make, sindibuze kuzisubiramo: izo nzitizi, izo mbogamizi zituma abantu badataha, ntabwo zigeze zivaho. Mwari muvuze abo bantu bo mu mashyamba ya Kongo, mwari muvuze amagambo y’abayobozi barimo n’ijambo rya Perezida wa Repebulika, akajya imbere y’abaturage akababwira ati “[impunzi z’abantu bari muri Kongo] abagomba gupfa twaragiye turabarasa, abagomba gutaha turabacyura”. Uwo muntu uri hariya usigaye ari impunzi yibaza ko ari mu bahe?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko niba yaratashye ntabwo azaraswa?

Gervais Condo: Reka da! Umva da!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Kandi yaratashye?

Gervais Condo: Yuuuu! Dufite abantu bigeze guterura hariya muri Gabon, indege igenda imenayo inshuro zingahe, ntawigeze amenya n’irengero ryabo. Ntabwo byongeye kuvugwa. Noneho rero uwo muntu uri aho ngaho aravuga ati “ndataha” amaze kumva amagambo nkayo n’ariya baraye bavuze ririya jambo ry’ejobundi ryo ku itariki ya 05 Perezida yavugiraga i Nyabihu, asubiza inyandiko yari yaturutse muri Minisiteri y’Ububanyi n’amahanga ya Leta zunze ubumwe z’Amerika hano. Noneho akavuga ati “ahubwo tugiye kujya tubarasa izuba riva”. Sayinzoga arabivuze ati “igihano cy’urupfu cyavuyeho” Nta nubwo ubajyanye mu rukiko ariko umuntu akababwira ati “ndi umukuru w’igihugu, ndababwiye nti “nzabarasa izuba riva’”. Abo bantu ntibagira icyo bibaza?

Ikindi bakavuga bati “ni ikibazo cy’umutekano”: icyo kibazo cy’umutekeno iyo hari ugomba kujya kugira ibyo azira bamurega ko ari kumwe na FDLR cyangwa se bakavuga ko ari kumwe na RNC. Ni byo. Baba bafite abamushyinja bakajya kubavana muri FDLR, icyo rero ni indi mpamvu igaragaza inzitizi. Noneho rero maze kuvuga iryo jambo, mwari muvuze abantu bafashwe, mwari muvuze abafashwe muri Ruhengeri na Gisenyi, abantu bajya kubaza inzego z’umutekano bati “abantu bacu ko babuze?” Bati “reka da!” Ntabwo rero ibyo bintu nk’ibyo bishishikariza impunzi gutaha. Ikibabaza rero ni uko iyo abantu bamaze gusesengura berekana imbogamizi, leta y’u Rwanda nanone irongera igahaguruka, ikambera nka wa mukobwa ubyukana ubutuna, akabyukana ingonera, akajya imbere y’indorerwamo ye, akayibwira ati “ndorerwamo yanjye, ndorerwamo yanjye nziza itagira uko isa, bwira ko ndi mwiza!” Indorerwamo itabimwereka akayimena. Agiye agakaraba akavanaho ubwo butuna, akavanaho izo ngonera yajyamo agasanga ntako asa n’izo mpunzi ntabwo tuvuga izo muri Kongo zonyine n’ahandi zinyanyagiye, zasibana zitaha. Nta muntu wifuza kuba impunzi yashoboraga kuba yaba mu gihugu cye.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ikibazo nari nkubajije ariko ntabwo uragisubiza: nakubajije ibi muvuga byo gutaha kwa FDLR, gutahana ishema?

Gervais Condo: Iyi nyandiko bakoze irareba cyane cyane impunzi. Iki kintu cya FDLR nayo ivuga ngo yari yarafashe imbunda, ikaba yarazirambitse igihe bari bagiye mu masezerano ya Sant’Egidio ku bushake bwayo, nta bantu bongeye kuvuga ngo “irimo irakoresha imbunda”, uretse rimwe na rimwe ari uko zarashweho. Nibyo nibuka ariko ba bakavuga bati natwe “turarambiwe, turashaka kugira ngo dutahe mu nzira y’amahoro. Turashaka ko abantu bashyikirana.”

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko muravuga ko bagomba gutaha with ‘dignity’, mwakoresheje ijambo ‘dignity’ in English mu cyongereza?

Gervais Condo: Ni byo rwose kimwe n’izindi mpunzi bagataha mu cyubahiro, bakagira iyo mishyikirano hagati ya leta n’abandi bose batavuga rumwe nayo, atari FDLR yonyine noneho abandi ahubwo bakavuga bati “reka nimukomereze aho ngaho tubabohere amaboko inyuma n’abo bandi tubone uko tubakubita ariko niyo bagenda gutyo ukavugha yuko utazaba urangije ikibazo mu mahoro, nujya kurasa FDLR, ujye kurasa kuri abo baturage kuko nayo ubwayo au depart nabo ni impunzi. Hashobora kuba harimo abakoze ibyaha.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Impunzi zifite intwaro?

Gervais Condo: Yego, yego zifite intwaro, uzabaze burya FPR, bariya batashye ari bantu bafite intwaro. Ntabwo batashye imbokoboko kandi bari barahoze ari impunzi nabo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Namwe niko mushaka se?

Gervais Condo: Ntabwo dushaka ibyo bintu byo kujya kumena amaraso. Imbunda niziceceke. Abantu bapfuye barahagiye. Abantu bavaneho ziriya mbogamizi zituma abantu badataha. Izo mbagamizi zizavanwaho n’imishyikirano. Nta sasu na rimwe rirekuwe, nta maraso amenetse.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka twumve Gashugi Faustin Kunde ari kumwe na Sayinzoga. Gashugi, ibivugwa n’aba bagabo babiri bari muri Amerika: baravugira impunzi. Wowe wari impunzi niko bambwiye, uratahuka, mbere na mbere, tubwire: bagenze gute ngo utahake?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Ndabanza gusubiza cyakora icyo bavuga ngo “gutaha mu cyubahiro”, ubundi gutahuka mu cyubahiro, umuntu akakirwa mu cyubahiro…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko iyo ubanza ubwire, ndacyikubaza icyo ngicyo, ndashaka kukubaza: watahutse ute?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Njyewe tumaze gutsindwa, nabaye muri Kongo [Kinshasa] jya no muri Kongo Brazzaville, igihe cyarageze intambara ya Kabila ibaye yo guhiga Abanyarwanda atwifashisha tuva i Brazzaville kugira ngo tuze kumufasha, nagarutse Kongo Kinshasa, turarwana. Bavuga ko turwanira demokarasi, ubutabera byose byose. Nakundaga rero gukurikira amakuru yo mu Rwanda, nkurikije amaradio cyangwa se n’ibinyamakuru. Igihe cyaje kugera rero mbona ahubwo ya demokarasi tuvuga ko turwanirira aho turi u Rwanda rurayirushya aho turi muri ibyo bihugu byose twabagamo. Nahisemo gutaha. Nagira ngo nkubutse ko natashye ndi mu bavuye i Kamina igihe ingabo za Kongo zaduteraga aho twari turi, turi mu kimeze nk’icinamico…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ubwo hari ryari?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Hari mu mwaka w’2002.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: 2002, kuva 2002 uri mu Rwanda kugeza ubu ngubu?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Ndi mu Rwanda n’abana banjye n’umugore.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Mubayeho mute?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Njyewe ndikorera ku giti cyanjye. Ndi umutechnicien mu by’ubwubatsi, ngakora n’ubuhinzi n’ubworozi.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Iyo wumva iyi miryango iri hanze cyangwa amashyirahamwe ari hanze bavuga ko FDLR yataha ariko igatahana ‘dignity’; iyi ‘dignity’ nabisobanuye mu cyongereza ni ishema; wowe, iryo shema urarifite?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Keretse niba yenda ishema ashaka kuvuga ari ishema ritari iryo ku isi, ari iryo mu ijuru kuko ishema ashaka kuvuga keretse niba ashaka ko uwajya ataha yajya yakirwa akajya kuri tapis rouge, akaririmbirwa hymne national, ubuntu wakiranwa ishema:  iyo uvuye muri mission y’igihugu yenda wagiye guserukira nk’igihugu muri athletisme cyangwa nk’abariya baba bagiye muri mission: Centrafrika, muri biriya bihugu birimo intambara. Iyo aje arakirwa, akakirwa na delegation y’igihugu…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko icyo ni icyubahiro, ni icyubahiro?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Icyo ni cyo cyubahiro…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ariko aba baravuga ‘dignity’?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Iyo utashye bakwakira nk’uko bakira undi muntu wese w’impunzi cyane cyane by’umwihariko mu Rwanda ho nk’abari abasirikare cyangwa bari abarwanyi ishema rya mbere ni uko bakirwa, bakajya mu kigo cy’amahugurwa cya Mutobo, bagahabwa amahugurwa na leta y’u Rwanda. Ayo mahugurwa iyo utakoresheje neza akugirira akamaro bikagera ku rwego ngezeho ubu ngubu.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Urwego ugezeho ruragushimishije?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Rurashimishije cyane kuko ayo mahirwe nakuye i Mutobo narayakoresheje ku buryo aho ntuye ubu Mugenzi, muri abo ngabo niyo wazabaza umwe akansura: ndi umwe mu bahinzi ntangarugero b’urutoke, maze kwiyubakira amazu yanjye yo kubaho, abana banjye biga mu bigo byiza by’amashuri. Ntekereza ko abo bavuga ibyo ngibyo abana babo ikibazo ni uko, abasinye no kuri iyi memerandum, abana babo bari muri za universites zikomeye zo muri Canada nahe hose. Izo mpunzi baba bavugira bashaka kugira nka pion umuntu akoresha muri dam, nta n’urafata icyemezo ngo ave aho muri Canada cyangwa muri Amerika aze azisure. Niyo bashatse kuboherereza, babashukisha amashapule kugira ngo bagumize babe aho gusa ngo barasenga, ngo bazacurwa na Bikira Mariya n’iki? Yee, nibyo birashoboka ariko ese bateye intambwe ko tuboherereza amafoto, tukavuga mu binyamakuru; abatashye bose kuva ku muntu wa mbere watashye turi i Kamina tugakurikiraho kugeza ku watashye ejobundi, hari uwo bari bumva wari wagira ikibazo? Yenda mu cyubahiro tuvuga: bazi bamwe mu mpunzi zatashye, twabaganaga aho muri Kongo bari abayobozi n’uyu munsi bakaba ari abayobozi hano mu gihugu cy’u Rwanda. Ni irihe shema riruta iryo Bwana Mugenzi?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Icyo kibazo ngira ngo sinjyewe wagisubiza. Ni Kalinganire wegisubiza!

Pascal Kalinganire: D’abord uwo mugabo uvuze ko yatashye mu mwaka w’2002, ubu turi mu mwaka w’2014. Imyaka imaze kuba 12 irenga. Ngo twandika cyangwa tugafata abo bantu en otage, ntitujye no kubareba ahubwo tukabashukisha amashapule: mu by’ukuri izo mpunzi tuvuga zo muri Kongo ziraswaho buri munsi. Zarashweho kuva muri ’96. Ziriya ni izarokotse. Mumvise abantu bagera hafi ku bihumbi 250 ko bapfiriye muri ubwo bwicanyi kandi baraswaho na FPR ubwayo. Ubutegetsi buri mu Rwanda. Ubwo butegetsi bwabarasagaho icyo gihe na n’ubu nibwo bugihari. Nta n’umwe wigeze wumvikana ngo yahanwe nuko yagiye kwica impunzi. Ejobundi raporo yasohotse ivuga ko ibyaye hariya biramutse bigeze mu butegetsi, mu bucamanza byakwemezwa rwose ko ari jonoside yababayeho. Biramutse byemejwe n’urukiko kuko abakoze raporo nta bubasha babifitiye ariko rero abo bantu barapfuye. Ibyo birazwi. Raporo iri hariya. Noneho ikinababaje ahubwo ni uko ari communaute internationale, ari na guverinoma y’u Rwanda nta n’umwe wavuze ati “reka dukore noneho enquete, duhane abakoze ibyaha”. Abo bantu rero barokotse ubwo bwicanyi nibo ubu ngubu baravuga ngo nibatahe, nibo baravuga nanone kandi ngo bakubiteho amasasu, ayo masasu Condo yavugaga, ngo bazajya kurasa FDLR, FDLR kandi yivanze mu bantu b’impunzi bagera ku bihumbi 245 nk’uko na Sayinzoga yabivuze.

Kuvuga ko ngo tubabuza gutaha, ibyo ngibyo ni byo byonyine bibabuza gutaha: amasasu abahora hejuru. Ntabwo tubabuza gutaha kandi no mu nyandiko zacu. Turavuga tuti “ubishatse, ubushatse natahe rwose ajye mu gihugu nk’uko uyu mugabo Gashugi abivuga: yaratashye. Ntacyo yabaye ariko rero ufite ubwoba noneho nawe nibamuhe ibimugenewe nk’impunzi y’umunyarwanda. Ni impunzi y’umunyarwanda nayo nimenyekane, ifashwe aho kugira ngo bayikorere umugambi ahubwo wo kujya kuyirasaho kandi nanone yaracitse amasasu n’ubwicanyi bwamubayeho mbere. Njye ndumva ari icyo nabivugaho rwose.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Condo? Ba uretse!

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Bwana Mugenzi, nagira ngo mubwire yuko imbaraga bakoresha bagumisha abantu iyo ngiyo bazikoreresheje bavuga ko ahubwo mu Rwanda ari amahoro, ko abantu bagombye gutaha, nagira ngo nkuhe urugero: nk’impunzi zahunze nko muri ’94 bazifashe akaboko, uyu munsi nibo bari gukoresha hariya mu ishyamba…

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ba uretse gato! Ba uretse! Uravuga zahunze muri ’94 bazifashe akaboko?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Ari abana bato cyane bahunganye n’ababyeyi babo.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Yego, ok.

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Ubu ngubu urumva imyaka bamaze kugira nibo bagiye bashyira mu gisirikare, bakaba ari abacaporaux n’abasergents n’abasu lieutenants. Iyo umubwiye uti “mu Rwanda, iwanyu hari hehe? Nk’iyo muhuriye i Mutobo wagiyeyo gutangayo ikiganiro. Arakubwira ati “babwira ko hari i Nyaruguru.”

-Hehe? Ntakubwira umurenge.

-Ese jenoside urayizi? Ati “numva bayivuga”

-Ese…? Ati “babwira!” Njyewe ntekereza ko abo bagabo baramutse bakoze ahubwo uburyo basansibiliza izo mpunzi kugira ngo zitahuke, imbaraga bakoresha bandika ibi bitabo bakazikoresha bazibwira ko zitahuka zigafatanya natwe kubaka igihugu rwose nta mpunzi mu mezi abiri zaba zashyize mu mashyamba ya Kongo.

Pascal Kalinganire: Arakoze cyane kuba atubwiye ko abo bantu bagize FDLR ari abana bagiye bakuruye akaboko kandi noneho icyo bazira bavuga ngo umutekano uri hariya “nibo bawubujije” ni uko bavuga ngo ni interahamwe. Ngo ni abantu basize bakoze jonoside. Uwo mwana bari bafashe akaboko iyo jenoside yo mu Rwanda ni iyihe? Yari azi gufata imbunda? Uwagendaga akuruwe na nyina? Bon, reka noneho nkomeze!

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Ba uretse gato! Ngaho Faustin!

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Nagira ngo mubwire ko ibyo ari ukubeshya. Ibyo ari byo byose abo bana ntabwo bakwitwa interahamwe kuko ntibanazizi ariko bitavuze ko nazo zidahari: nazo zirahari. Hari izihari zikiri muri ariya mashyamba kandi nawe arabizi ubwe ubwo tuvugana nawe arabizi. Igihe nikigera nashaka azabwire nzamubwire amazina.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Nabazaga Condo, baravuga ko mufite uruhare mu kubuza izo mpunzi gutahuka Condo?

Gervais Condo: Ni byo nakubwiraga mu kanya mfata ijambo nkubwira ibya wa mugore w’ubutuna n’ingonera: yakwireba akabwira indorerwamo ngo nimubwire ko ari mwiza, itabivuga akayimena. Ni ibyo ngibyo. Ntabwo dufite uruhare na rutoya rwo kuba twabuza abantu gutaha Kalinganire yabivuze: uzumva umutekano we utagaramiwe, turamubwira tuti “rwose gerageza  ujye muri kiriya gihugu” kandi nta n’ukuntu umuntu yakabigenjeje. Tufiteyo miliyoni z’ababyeyi n’abavandimwe n’abantu b’inshuti bandi bari hariya. Niba hari uwumva umutekano we ntacyo umutwaye, ntacyo umutwaye, wambubwira uti “ngaho uzagende ujyeyo” ariko ukubwiye ati “nanjye mfite ibyo mpunga. Ndacyafite ubwoba. Ndacyafite impungege. Dore kandi ikizintera ni iki ngiki, ukavuga utu “nawe ndamvumva.” ahubwo reka noneho tumumare ubwoba za mpungege yitwazaga cyangwa se zimubuza gutaha ne kuvuga ngo ni urwitwazo, leta ni ikore ibishoboka ziveho kuko leta niyo ifite uruhare runini: gutanga za assurances ko abaturage babo bazabona umutekano, bazabona bwa bwisanzure twahoze tuvuga, bazabona ubutabera, bazabona ibimenyetso bifatika, bigaragara yuko uwo muntu nta kibi kizababaho. Ntabwo rero tujya tubabwira ngo “nibareke gutaha!”. Turavuga tuti “ni byiza nimutahe” ariko ntimuze kubeshya ngo nitwe tubabuza, mumenye ko ikibuza abo bantu nabo bafite amakuru y’abantu bari sur place bababwira bati “tugize Imana natwe twasohoka”.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka kujye kuri iyi ngingo y’imishyikirano muvuga ko mushyigikiye ibyo SADC ivuga n’ibyo Perezida wa Tanzaniya avuga, ikaba ariyo ngingo ya nyuma tugiye kuvuga muri iki kiganiro. Bwana Sayinzoga, ibi biganiro biramutse bibaye, iyi ‘dialogue’ bavuga bagahura bakiga ikibazo cy’u Rwanda uko twumvise bo bavuga ko bigihari; hari icyo bitwaye bahuye bakaganira kugira ngo bacoke maze ibintu bigende neza?

Sayinzoga Jean: Impamvu mbona iyo mishyikirano atari ngombwa; impamvu ya mbere: ni uko imiryango y’u Rwanda ifunguye. Ntabwo rero hakenewe kujya kugira inama zindi iruhande kandi ibyo tuvugana tubivugana igihe cyose, duhamagarira Abanyarwanda bose kuvuga igihe bashakiye, bakavuga ibyo bashatse. Ibibazo bafite tukabisubiza. Ntagushakisha izindi mpamvu zo kugira ngo bagire imishyikirano y’indi. Iya kabiri: ni uko abantu bafite ubushobozi bwo kuza mu Rwanda bakareba ibihari mu Rwanda, twohereza n’Abanyarwanda bakajya hanze; Abanyarwanda batahutse bakajya kubwira abo basize hanze uko u Rwanda rumeze, bagatanga ubuhamya, bakabaha amakuru, uyashaka bakayamuha. Icya gatatu: nabatahuka ubu ngubu ari abahoze ari abasirikare ari n’impunzi z’Abanyarwanda abo bantu tubaha telefoni, tukabaha amafaranga yo guterefonesha bakavugana n’abandi, abashaka bagataha. Icya kane nacyo: ni uko abahunze bose impamvu ntabwo ari imwe. Ni byo koko hari abahunze muri ’94 mbere y’aho ngaho sinzi ko hari n’abahunze muri ’59 bakibivuga, ntabwo bahari ariko abahunze nyuma ya ’94, hari abahunze ni byo koko igihe hari imirwano mu Rwanda, hari n’abahunze bafite ubwoba kubera ko abandi babatera ubwoba. Ibyo ngibyo na Kunde yaguha ubuhamya: hari bantu baza kubera imitungo bakabamerera nabi ariko hari nabagiye bahunga ibyaha bagiye bakora ku giti cyabo, uwo se nawe arasaba imishyikirano? Urumva uwo nguwo we ni ukugira ngo agende muri icyo kigare, bavuge ngo “babariye abantu bose”, nawe arimo. Icyo twifuza ni uko umunyarwanda wese yataha mu Rwanda. Ni cyo twifuza rwose. Kuvuga rero ngo nibagire imishyikirano yindi, sinzi ubwoko iyo mishyikirano ubwoko bashaka ubwo ari bwo. N’ibyo Kunde yakubwiraga ko batashye muri 2002, kuva icyo gihe hari gahunda ibwira impunzi ngo “nimuze mu Rwanda murebe, musubireyo mubwire abandi ibyo mwabonye”, ya yindi ngo “go and see, come and tell”. Bukeye turavuga tuti “noneho reka noneho tuboherereze n’abana bari mu Rwanda, basazwe mu Rwanda bahageze mbere; bagende bajye mu nkambi z’impunzi bababwire uko imryango yabo imeze, babahe amakuru, babahe n’amazina y’imiryango yabo. Noneho bazaze nibagaruka mu Rwanda –abo ni bari mu Rwanda- nibagaruka mu Rwanda bakomeze bavugane nabo, baboherereze n’amafoto kugira ngo barebe ko abo bantu bakiriho n’uko bameze. Iyo gahunda twarayikoze.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka twumve na Gashugi Faustin Kunde, iyi ‘dialogue’, ibi biganiro; wowe urabyumva gute?

Gashugi Faustin Kunde: Iyo ‘dialogue’  basaba, ubundi wazisaba hari ubwo hari conditions bashyiraho kugira ngo batahe. Ntabwo rero habaho ‘dialogue’ nta kintu na gito, icyo basaba impunzi iri hanze yose ni ugutaha sans conditions. Agataha mu gihugu cye, agafatanya n’abandi kubaka igihugu. Urugero naguha: hari bamwe mubo twatahanye b’abasirikare, bageze hano mu gihugu bagifite imbaraga, abana bamwe barize barangije basubira mu gisirikare. Nagira ngo narangire nk’impunzi ziri muri Centrafurika cyangwa muri Kongo Brazzaville zizajye muri Centrafurika zirebe mu basirikare bahari hari bamwe bari mu mpunzi aho ngaho bahagarutse bari mu ngabo z’igihugu. None se icyubahiro kiruta ko waza ugahabwa uburenganzira nk’ubw’abandi, ni ikihe Nyakubahwa Mugenzi? Ikindi nongeraho, twebwe u Rwanda dufite umwihariko: abatashye nakubwiye ko bahabwa chances zo kwiga imyuga ndetse abibumbiye no mu mashyirahamwe bagahabwa n’amafaranga yo kuba batangira kugira ngo bakore, ni hehe waba warabyumvise handi ku isi uretse mu Rwanda Mugenzi?

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Jye kuri Condo, kuki mushaka imishyikirano?

Gervais Condo: Urabona umuntu wicaye hariya nka Sayinzoga uko arimo gusobanura biriya bintu ni cya kinyoma duhora tuvuga leta yagize ukuri kwayo. Iyo tuvuga tuti “turashaka iyo mishyikirano izatanga garantie ku munyarwanda wese kugira ngo yumve ari mu gihugu cye, icyo kibazo cy’ubuhunzi bicike bicitse ni ukugira ngo abantu bavuge izo mbogamizi zose mu mizi yazo. Twagiye tubivuga mu magambo ya rusange. Twabonye ibintu byitwa ubutabera muri kiriya gihugu: bwaba ubwa gacaca, bwaba n’ubwa hehe, aho ibintu byitwa ‘gutekinika’ byasimbuye gushaka umucamanza, ndashaka gushaka umushinjacyaha ngo ashake icyaha cya nyacyo, akigenze. Ibyo bintu ni byiza ko haba ubwigenge bw’ubutabera, umuntu ntaze ngo bamushakire abashinjabinyoma, bavuge bati “agomba kumanikwa, tugomba kumubonera ibyaha absolument”. Icyo ni ikintu gikomeye cyane kandi leta itazemera yuko gikorwa. Twavuze ibyo bintu by’abavuga bashaka uburenganzira bw’ikirenwamuntu kuko itangazamakuru ryigenga n’amashyaka akora mu bwisanzure bituma bakebura na guverinoma ntiyirare. Ikibazo rero kiriho kuri ubu ngubu kuri leta y’u Rwanda ni uko uvuze ko bibeshye, ko uburyo babona ibintu ntakigenda, aba abaye umwanzi w’igihugu. Ibyo dushashaka ko abantu bakabiganiriyeho.

Ikindi ni ikintu cyitwa inzego z’umutekano: inzego z’umutekano zikwiye kuba kuri buri muntu wese. Umuntu akabona izo nzego z’umutekano agomba kugenda azisanga, azitabaza aho kugira ngo agenda azihisha, arizo bakoresha kugira ngo zimucecekeshe. Ibyo bintu bikenewe kuganirwaho.

Ikindi, iyo abantu bavuga demokarasi n’imiyoborere myiza ukabigereanya n’ibyo bari kutubwira hariya birahabanye, hari ibyanditse mu bitabo ariko bajya kubishyira mu bikorwa ugasanga ntaho bihuriye n’ibyo barimo kuvuga. Mwatanze ingero z’iyo miyoborere myiza, iyo umunsi umwe babyuka bakavuga bati “utaje kurahira” muri ba bana uriya Gashugi yahoze ahakana tuvuge bariya bana bagiye mu mashyamba nk’iriya gahunda ya Ndi umunyarwanda, bati “abana b’abahutu nibaze basabe imbabazi, abatazisabye nabo biragaraga ko ari interahamwe. Atubwiye mu kanya yuko hariya muri  ariya mashyamba yagenda akabonayo interahamwe: iri si ishyano! Ashobora kubwira ko yabona umuntu wahoze ari interahamwe, ashobora kubwira ko yabonayo umuntu wahoze mu gisirikare cya ex-FAR. Ntabwo yavuga ngo ni FAR. Nawe ni ex ni ukuvuga uwahoze. Ashobora kubona n’uwahoze ari interahamwe ariko byagera aho ngaho iyo bashaka kugira ngo basige umuntu ibara, agomba kugumana icyo cyasha cy’uko ari interahamwe nubwo uwo mutwe ntawukibaho. Ni byo rero. Ibibazo bikomeye abantu bagomba kuganiraho,.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka twumve niba Kalinganire hari icyo wongera impamvu mushaka iyo ‘dialogue’ ibyo biganiro. Muri make kuko turarangiza!

Pascal Kalinganire: Condo ibyo avuze ni byo. Ndongeraho ikintu kimwe ko mu Rwanda kuva na kera cyane rwose ntabwo ubutegetsi bwigeze bubera Abanyarwanda bose cyane cyane abahutu, abatutsi, abatwa. Wagiye usanga ubutegetsi bwifatiwe n’agace kamwe; ubwoko bumwe, ubundi bukaba buragiye. Igihugu cyagiye kiyoborwa tuvuge duhereye nko muri ’59 kikayoborwa n’ubwoko bumwe ubundi bukava mu gihugu cyangwa se bikaba urujya n’uruza rwo kurwana. Ibyo byose nabyo byagombye kwiyongera kuri ibyo Condo avuze. Tukavuga tuti “kuki aya mahane ahora hagati y’amoko y’igihugu, ayobora igihugu? Kuki hatajyaho demokarasi ibereye umuhutu, ibereye umutwa, ibereye umututsi? Ahasigaye Abanyarwanda bakagira securite ibereye Abanyarwanda bose, atari irengera imwe ngo ireke undi. Donc, ibibazo byo kuganiraho birahari byatuma Abanyarwanda bishyira bakizana, bakavuga bati “reka tubane mu mudendezo, twese turi abana b’Abanyarwanda”. Ndi umuhutu, ndi umututsi, ndi umutwa; narize, ndi umunyenduga, ndi umukiga; ahasigaye tukareba ukuntu systeme ya kiriya gihugu, yayobora kiriya gihugu yashyira Abanyarwanda mu gatebo kamwe. Bakabana bose bagasangira ibyiza by’u Rwanda n’ubutegetsi n’imibereho.

Ally Yusuf Mugenzi: Reka turangirize aho: “kuvuga menshi siko kuyamara”. Reka mbashimire rero mwese Bwana Sayinzoga Jean, Bwana Gashugi Faustin Kunde, Bwana Pascal Kalinganire na Bwana Gervais Condo ku bitekerezo mutanze muri iki kiganiro cy’Imvo n’Imvano. Bakunzi b’ikiganiro Imvo n’Imvano ni aha turangirije Imvo n’Imvano y’uyu munsi. Mwari kumwe na Ally Yusuf Mugenzi. Ni ah’ubutaha!

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